A real "Governing Body"?

by OHappyDay 21 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • OHappyDay
    OHappyDay

    I'm sure the question has been asked before, but I can't help but wonder to what extent the first "governing body" was any way like the Governing Body today?

    Is it not ironic that the apostle Paul, who was NOT a member of the "governing body" was used by God to write most of the New Testament?

    Of the "governing body," only James and Peter wrote anything of instruction letters to Christians, one book for James and two for Peter.

    Why, in addressing Christians on life and conduct, did God apparently bypass the "governing body"?

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    Good points OHappyDay:

    And Paul told people to specifically ignore at least one of the Acts 15 commands from the governing body when he wrote to the Corinthians.

    In Galatians Paul calls James, Peter and John the "so-called" pillars of the congregation, and associated them with an unchristian Gospel, that should be "damned." He was mad enough to wish that such men would have had their penis cut off while they were being circumcised.

    There is reason to think Paul still had them in mind when he told the Corinthians about their so-called superfine apostles.

    Also, very few modern Bible scholars believe that Peter or James wrote the letters attributed to them. 2 Peter was disputed even by some of the same early Church Fathers that decided which books to include for us in the first place.

    Gamaliel

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    Gamaliel,

    In Galatians Paul calls James, Peter and John the "so-called" pillars of the congregation, and associated them with an unchristian Gospel, that should be "damned." He was mad enough to wish that such men would have had their penis cut off while they were being circumcised.

    I am not sure what passage you have in mind. The nearest I found was in Galations 2.6 onwards, which says (NEB)

    "But as for men of high reputation,not that their reputation matters much to me,God does not recognize these personal distinctions - these men of repute did not prolong the consultation, but on the contrary acknowledged that I had been entrusted with the Gospel for the Gentiles as surely as surely as Peter had been entrusted with the Gospel for the jews. For God whose actions made Peter an apostle to the jews also made me an apostle to the Gentiles.

    Recognizing then the favour that was bestowed upon me, those reputed pillars of our society, James,Cephas and John accepted Barnabas and myself as partners and shook hands upon it agreeing that we should go to the Gentiles while they went to the Jews"

    It all seems harmonious to me, but do you have another thought?

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Galatians Chapter 1

    17: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
    18: Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
    19: But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
    20: Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
    21: Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
    22: And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
    23: But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
    24: And they glorified God in me.

    Paul considered Peter and James to be legitimate apostles.

    Those that were preaching another gospel were false brethren, not Peter and James.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Bluesbrother...the efforts made by the Roman Church and earlier Pauline writers to revise the history of the religion has made attempting to recover the real past very difficult and often speculative. Acts was written for the very purpose of creating a artificial continuity to the Ebionite Jesus cult in Jerusalem led by James with the more Greek influenced Christianity of Paul and his later disciples. If you wish to delve into the fray of this debate go to the Jesus Mysteries discussion group at Yahoo and subscribe to receive daily debate and discussion. It's free. After a month or so you will get the picture more clearly. Archives are also searchable at the site.

    Yes, we know all about it Hooberus.

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel
    Recognizing then the favour that was bestowed upon me, those reputed pillars of our society, James,Cephas and John accepted Barnabas and myself as partners and shook hands upon it agreeing that we should go to the Gentiles while they went to the Jews"

    It all seems harmonious to me, but do you have another thought?

    I used to spend countless hours studying these passages that might appear to defend the apostles at Jerusalem and might appear to damn them. I've read one good book that does a good job harmonizing Acts and Galatians, but I realize that it's too much of a stretch for me now to accept its claims. But, yes, I do have another thought, which I don't mean to be dogmatic about, it's only that there is some evidence that this is what it COULD mean.

    (Hooberus: I take it that Paul does recognize the GB/trio: James (Jesus' brother, not the "apostle"), Cephas and John as legitimate apostles to the Jews, I just think that he himself finally completely broke with them over what they taught about Gentile conversion, and Galatians is his explanation of why.)

    I changed my mind a couple years ago on the idea that Paul is defending the true apostles and is only against certain false brethren (who also existed, I agree) because I previously had not considered the importance of Paul's absolute, direct denial of their authority in the case of "things sacrificed to idols." Also, when I compare Acts, Corinthians and Galatians, especially, a scenario emerges that fits and finally explains for me some of those odd words about the apostle's reputation and Paul's own anger at what they were promoting and why Paul was having so much trouble stopping it.

    BTW, I don't believe Paul was referring directly to the GB/trio when he spoke of the emasculations, he was probably reserving that for the problem he had with false brethren sent from James, and the extra anger, I'd guess was based on fact that he thought he had an agreement that circumcision was out of the question for Gentiles. Paul, for his part, must not have agreed to any law for Gentiles at all (i.e, "further burden") no matter how obviously correct or Biblical it sounded -- but at least he thought he had already "won" on the circumcision issue. The problem, as I see it, is that Paul is associating the renewed problems with the fact that he was up against the reputation of the "GB" (Peter,James,John) who still didn't "get it." These troublemakers still came ultimately, Paul says, "from James." Furthermore, Paul immediately goes on to explain his "run-in" with Peter apparently just to prove that he Peter didn't quite get it and was, in effect, going back on his word -- even after the handshake at Jerusalem.

    Paul calls them "so-called" pillars (muted by translations that say reputed), which might be ambiguous on its own, but it ties in with a theme Paul brought up in almost every letter where he found himself discussing reputation and authority and tied it to the difficulties of getting his point across about the differences between Jewish and Gentile conversion.

    Galatians itself starts out with the idea that "even if an angel from heaven were to preach a different Gospel, let them be accursed/anathema/damned)". Why such an exaggeration about the reputation of those preaching a different Gospel, if it weren't possible that the different Gospel was coming from the closest thing Christians had to "angels:" the likes of James or Peter or John? And if they weren't preaching a different Gospel, why specifically mention them by name in a way that could denegrate their reputation? Why give a story about Peter living a different Gospel than one he agreed on? And doesn't a specific contradiction of one of the "GB's" "further burden" in Acts 15 count as preaching a different Gospel?

    Denying the rule about things sacrificed to idols effectively denies the one on blood, too. Paul also went to great lengths to show that we didn't need a rule against fornication to avoid fornication. He literally preached a Gospel that was absolutely different from the GB's words in Acts 15. Per Galatians that made the Acts 15 GB accursed/anathema/damned. Even if Luke is trying to smooth over the differences, the differences are still there, and Luke mentions some of the same people involved that Paul does.

    That's most of the argument, but the specific details run through all of Paul's letters.

    Gamaliel

  • garybuss
    garybuss



    The Watch Tower Publishing Corporation never had a Governing Body until the coup in the mid 1970's. Russell was the owner of the publishing corporation and did most all the writing during his life. Rutherford owned the corporation until his death and did virtually all the writing with the notable exception of the 7th volume of Studies. Rutherford by lined his writings. All easy to see.

    He who controls is the owner. Knorr was a virtual owner until he was de-powered in a coup, if not led, then encouraged by Ray Franz, that established the committee. That committee only had the appearance of power until they were all forced to resign in 2000. Barely 25 years. Now the corporations are huge and rich and are run by attorneys and business strategists. Now the committee has icon status and by all appearance is powerless window dressing.

    Hope that wasn't too far off topic. Thanks for the thread. GaryB

  • mizpah
    mizpah

    If there were no "governing body" in the lst century, it would be rather difficult to make a comparison or a parallel. And this seems to be the case. It appears that the congregations were somewhat autonomous. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that a "governing body" controlled the preaching of the "gospel." As noted, Paul is certainly a good example. He was led by the holy spirit and did not think to consult even the apostles and elders of Jerusalem. The one example used by the Watchtower to suggest the existence of a "governing body" falls flat upon investigation of scripture.

    The Watchtower has promoted this idea of a "governing body" to lend weight to its own authority. But there is no evidence of such an arrangement in even its own early history. It's much like the Catholic claim of "apostolic succession." These groups reach back to apostolic times to give their own organization a legitimacy. But these claims lack any scriptural evidence.

  • OHappyDay
    OHappyDay

    Thanks for all the comments. It is clear from the Pauline epistles that Paul considered Jesus Christ to be the source of his Gospel, not any "governing body." (Gal. 1:11, 12, etc.) And where he disagreed with any putative ecclesiastical authority in Jerusalem, he was not loathe to publicly express it.

    If such a situation existed today, no doubt Paul would be promptly disfellowshiped for "independent thinking"! The suppression of intellectual freedom among its members is perhaps the worst failing of the Watchtower Society. People should not have to wash away their right to think with the waters of baptism.

  • warrior
    warrior

    I have very grave reservations with respect to any person who who would question those of BETHEL! Satan often clouds the minds of persons not grounded in the BLESSED SCRIPTURES. Let us hope that the person who made this posting shall in humility cast off their moth-eaten revolting vesture & attain the ROBES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS by submitting to those whom THE MOST HIGH has placed in authority over the CONGREGATION OF THE FAITHFUL, Respectfully Submitted, Douglass Miller

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