My jw does not refer so much to 'demons' as much as 'evil', perhaps the word 'evil' has taken the place of 'demons'? although, come to think of it, over the years and even pretty recently he did toss some things because of them being 'demon related'. That is what family has told me, he wouldn't go there with me.
where have the demons gone?
by aboveusonlysky 54 Replies latest jw friends
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carla
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Simon
There are a large number of what we called in one church office as "haunted wanna-be's." Apparently some people were well known for calling their pastors and priests repeatedly with claims of ghosts.
You see this in other ways too, not just ghost-stories. Ben Carson's "I tried to stab someone but the belt buckle mysteriously stopped me" type nonsense where people invent incredible life-altering events which have no evidence to support them but all follow a pattern of them being miraculously diverted from some 'bad' life-course.
As though they are special.
And that's why these people do it. They want to feel special and what better than a) satan and his demons going out of their way to target you and b) god and his angels intervening to save you! Yes, a big cosmic battle all going on over YOU and some junk you bought as a 2nd hand store, that's just how important you are ...
They also serve as a stand-in for evidence that is otherwise lacking. No evidence of god or satan? Invent a story where they slammed a door when you were close to it. But any sensible person knows it's all as credible as the big-foot sightings and people who claim to have been abducted by aliens. Evidence of someone's delusions and nothing else, but the believers always lap it up.
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Hiemere
I also think OrphanCrow is equally correct in that you can't get a fire going without kindling. The Society supplies plenty of kindling, but my hypothesis was about the actual "logs" of the fire.
Also: My hypothesis only applies if the number of fantastic "demon" stories like those that were circulated around 1980-1985 or so have diminished. If they haven't, then OrphanCrow may be far more correct. I was never a baptized Witness nor do I have any connection with them or have been to Kingdom Hall before the year 2000.
But if they have diminished, it could explain why there are less of them. My thought was: If we look at what else has diminished from the Watchtower we might find an answer.
I also think OrphanCrow may not have taken into account what I meant about the JW's "demonizing" the outside ghost stories, as this means we are both really saying the same thing. I mentioned in my previous post that Witnesses turn all stories about ghosts into stories about demons. This doesn't happen in the churches any new comers come from.
Ghosts have various categories in churches and other groups: there are spirits of dead loved ones, lost dead souls, so-called "recorded history" that plays back without interaction (such as soldiers walking around on battlefields of the past), etc. Very few are considered actual "demons," with these often being labeled as "inhumans" in the paranormal/demonology world of religion.
Because Jehovah's Witnesses do not possess an immortal soul doctrine, they immediately write off as "impossible" that ghosts could be the "dead loved ones" that some reportedly appear to be, etc. Any "paranormal activity" gets lumped into one big pile marked "demon activity."
Now that's what I meant and wrote about. In my hypothesis I included the fact that this aspect of "it's all demons" comes from the JWs, as OrphanCrow mentioned, and it is somewhat of a unique "earmark," if you will, of the JW culture or paradigm. Without this JW earmark, there would be no "demon stories" to begin with. OrphanCrow is correct in that the JW culture has all this in place on its own, and I agreed and stated that. I also added the fact that Witnesses are horrific gossipers, and if you ask me they are quite superstitious and paranoid when it comes to the subject of evil spirits. The expression I found amusing from them was "that smacks of demonism," at least back in the 1980s. A lot of things "smacked" like that, according to them.
Figure in that it was the highlight of the Cold War era and people in general were far more wary of things, not just the JWs. There was no wide use of the Internet, no "ghost hunting" tv shows, no smart phones to look things up, and the Witnesses had just come through the big upset of apostasy at Bethel after the 1975 debacle. There were "apostates" and "demons" everywhere, in everything. In the late 1970s and early 1980s the JWs were quick to get caught up in the Procter & Gambel/witchcraft urban legend which got quickly replaced by the "spirit faces" in the new full-color literature after gossip spread that some of the Bethel artists were apostates and had placed "demon faces" into literature to lure faithful Witnesses away from "the Truth." OrphanCrow is not totally incorrect, as this is what I personally witnessed among the JWs and at rates higher than one would expect from religious people who are generally unafraid "since we have Jesus," as some say.
It was a different time too. You don't hear about these things anymore. The "demons" have seemed to have disappeared. But part of the reason is that those born-ins don't have a source for new outside ghost stories that become demons, and the Society has moved away from large amounts of painted illustrations (it was difficult to produce color photographs until the mid to late 1990s).
Again OrphanCrow is also correct, but not at the expense of what I am saying. Besides I am just offering a hypothesis. You cannot say a hypothesis has no merit unless you prove that by critical analysis and have your results confirmed and established. Just because you have an opinion or your "gut" tells you something isn't enough.
Unless maybe you're under the influence of "demons!" ;)
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OrphanCrow
Hiemere: ...I mentioned in my previous post that Witnesses turn all stories about ghosts into stories about demons.
Yes. You have made a critical point.
In JW land, a ghost is a demon. Demons pretend to be dead people. Other belief systems accept the ghost theory that ghosts are departed people and not demons having fun with humans. In most cultures, ghosts are ghosts...dead people's spirits floating around.
JWs don't believe in the spirit of a person having agency...the spirit dies in death. Therefore...demons
I don't disagree with you at all, Hiemere. It is a big picture thing...lots going on to add to the JW culture of demons and a devil.
I think the demon culture of the JWs is why the WTS has a reasonable success rate with indigenous cultures. Most traditional forms of diety worship have active demonology as part of their belief systems. It is strange, though, how the WTS can successfully put the ancestors to sleep and yet keep the demons alive
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Hiemere
And that's why these people do it. They want to feel special and what better than a) satan and his demons going out of their way to target you and b) god and his angels intervening to save you! Yes, a big cosmic battle all going on over YOU and some junk you bought as a 2nd hand store, that's just how important you are ...
They also serve as a stand-in for evidence that is otherwise lacking. No evidence of god or satan? Invent a story where they slammed a door when you were close to it. But any sensible person knows it's all as credible as the big-foot sightings and people who claim to have been abducted by aliens. Evidence of someone's delusions and nothing else, but the believers always lap it up.Simon's comment pretty much sums up what I saw going on in Catholic dioceses I worked for.
As some of you might know, the identity of official Catholic exorcists are generally unknown by the public. Depending on the size of your diocese or archdiocese it may have only 1 or less than a handful. Is there some mystical reason why? Not really.
There is, of course, the need to keep things private. Even if a so-called "possession" is nothing more than a case of mental illness on behalf of someone, for the sake of consideration, all things are kept away from the public. That is still a "real" case too, so to speak, as far as exorcism is concerned because sometimes a mentally ill person might believe they are possessed, and performing the actual rite has helped some of these.
There are very rare cases where the Catholic Church ever admits to itself that there is the possibility it is dealing with something "spiritual." There have been cases, like the famous 1949 "Roland Doe" case that inspired the novel and film The Exorcist, but that is not common and even less common that it got leaked out in the first place. Oddly the Catholic Church is not interested in telling people the details of this or other cases as "proof" of demons and evil spirits. There was one home in a nearby perish where the diocesan exorcist was called to and had been working with when I was an office employee, but no one was allowed to speak about it or inquire beyond what their work required. Make of that what you will.
But the real reason you don't know the identity of the exorcist(s) in your nearby parish is that they will get bothered by the "haunted wanna-be's" to the point that they cannot work. Where the identity of an exorcist has leaked out, these people have literally stalked the priest to the point that a new exorcist had to be trained and their identity hidden while the previous one was relieved of their exorcism duties. To quote what one priest told me: "Why they insist, I cannot tell you, but they seem to want to be haunted and want to use their experiences to prove to everyone that ghosts are real. Maybe they believe that getting a genuine exorcism performed will validate them."
The Holy See seems to have been working on silencing priests who have recently talked to the press over the novelty they have found in the rite as well. The rite was one of the last official texts that has been translated into the vernacular from Latin (after Vatican II in the 1960s all rites and liturgy have been rendered into common languages and it has taken some time to do them all). After the new printed edition of the rite in the vernacular was released, some of the priests talked to the press a little more openly then they should have and this lead to a new plethora of movies, tv shows, and interest in the subject (people love gossip). Since then all has been quieted again, but some new priests recently had to get the training because the identity of others slipped out and they couldn't care for legitimate needs due to the overflow of cases from these people who for some reason or other can't sleep unless they prove to world that ghosts are real!
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LongHairGal
It seemed to me that all these demon stories died down just about the time when the religion wanted Witnesses to look "business-like" when they were out in the ministry.
Never mind that the religion is against careers and higher education. They want it to SEEM as if they are "business-like" to the unsuspecting public.
They want to be more appealing to the rest of society that IS educated and works for a living.....Sisters with shabby clothing and stories about demons are an embarrassment to them.
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kairos
From the Live Forever book:
pg 96
RESISTING WICKED SPIRIT ATTACKS
17 What should you do if a “voice” from the spirit world speaks to you? What if the “voice” pretends to be a dead relative or a good spirit? Well, what did Jesus do when the “ruler of the demons” spoke to him? (Matthew 9:34) He said: “Go away, Satan!” (Matthew 4:10) You can do that too. Also, you can call on Jehovah for help. Pray out loud and use God’s name. Remember that he is more powerful than are wicked spirits. Follow this wise course. Do not listen to such voices from the spirit world. (Proverbs 18:10; James 4:7) This does not mean that everyone who hears “voices” is being spoken to by demons. At times the hearing of voices can be traced to certain physical or mental illnesses.
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aboveusonlysky
Well, what did Jesus do when the “ruler of the demons” spoke to him? (Matthew 9:34) He said: “Go away, Satan!”
As I recall it Jesus spoke to satan for a few minutes and only sent him on his way when the dude asked for worship, Jehovah in the book of Job let Satan interrupt his board meeting and even had a flutter with him over the eternal future of his favourite human.
Another example of botchtower nonsense......."hey brothers, we've made a rule and here's a scripture that kinda loosely fits what we're telling you to do in a round about way"
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greenhornet
Years ago when my parents were alive, They would come and visit us once a year. So we would take them to realy cool historic places. There a an old restaurant and inn in the mountains we went to and had lunch there.
The local people said it was haunted and I also knew that too , I just liked it because it was old and very interesting. My parents enjoyed the food and the charm of the place. Well any way we got home and showed them a tourist leaflet in the lobby of this place and said Mom did you like the haunted building we went to and showed them the leaflet about the history and how it is haunted by this women that died 120 years ago. My mom and dad when went ballistic on me . My mom cried and wanted to leave for home and pay for an one way ticket home and forfit the round trip plane ticket . So you see folks this is one of the reasons why I left this crazy cult years ago.
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stuckinarut2
As education levels increase, stories of ghosts and demons in the community decrease.
The best "exorcism" for demons is education.....