When "all" is not "everyone" or "everything."

by Wonderment 12 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    We keep seeing posters bringing Col. 1.16 and John 1.3 up as proof that Christ is excluded from the creative acts. The proof they submit is that the words "all things [Gk., pánta]" appear in these texts. However, they are missing this important element from the discussion: the word "all" is rarely used in Greek, and even in our everyday language to mean literally "everyone" or "everything" under the sky. For instance, let's take this one example from medicalartsradiology.com: "Even out the breast thickness so that all of the tissue can be visualized." Did the technicians mean here "all" the tissue from the buttocks, or calves? "All" here is contextually limited in meaning, is it not? The same principle applies in Scripture. The word "all" as in "all things" can have exceptions, and frequently does.

    The Greek word for "all" is "pas." From this word we get these forms: pánta, pántes, pántõn, etc., and then some. The word appears over 1,200 times in the NT, and over 7,000 times in the Septuagint (LXX).

    John Parkhurst gives one meaning of pas: “All, in a qualified sense, i.e. All, in general, though not each individual, most, a great many: Matt. 4:24; 10:22; Mark 1:37; Luke 15:1; John 12:32; Phil 2:21. Compare Matt. 3:15; 23:3; Luke 21:35.” (Greek and English Lexicon to the New Testament)

    Robert Young explains under “Illustrations of Bible Idioms” -- “Idiomatic Expressions”: “‘All and Some’ – The meanings of these words are frequently reversed in Scripture. The word all can mean some, and vice versa.” (Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible)

    Jason BeDuhn adds: “‘All’ is commonly used in Greek as a hyperbole, that is, an exaggeration. The ‘other’ is assumed. [...] All translations ‘add words’ in an effort to make coherent English sentences out of Greek ones.” (Truth in Translation, pp 84,86)

    Matt. 10.22: "All men [Others: everyone] will hate you because of me..." (NIV; Gk., pántōn) The NIV Study Bible acknowledges the meaning here: "All. Hyperbole." Will "all people" hate you if you follow Christ? Many will, but not everyone. In fact, some may love you for it.

    Mark 1.37, When Jesus went out very early in the morning while it was still dark to a solitary place, Simon Peter and his companions hunted him down, and when they found him, they exclaimed: "All are looking for you." [Gk., "pántes" (or, "everyone")] Was "everyone" in Galilee looking for him? No, it was the four disciples Jesus had called who searched for him. And perhaps Philip and Nathanael with them. So at most, a half-dozen or so individuals are summed up in this "all."

    In the Septuagint we read in Ge. 3.20 that Eve was "the mother of all [pántõn] the living." (NETS) We should not assume that Eve was the mother of Adam, the angels, or even of the animals. What about God and Jesus, where they sons of mother Eve?

    Did you know that even some modern Greek versions add the word "other" when the original text did not. One modern Greek version reads: “κι όλοι οι άλλοι μαθητές [Translation: and all the other disciples].” (Acts 5.29, Η ΚΑΙΝΗ ΔΙΑΘΗΚΗ, ΕΓΧΕΙΡΙΔΙΟ ΜΕΛΕΤΗΣ ΚΑΙ ΖΩΗΣ)

    Some scholars have pointed out the following: “The omission of the notion ‘other, whatever’...is specifically Greek.” (A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, pp. 160, 254. ©1961, The University of Chicago) Could this apply to Colossians 1.16 and John 1.3? Yes, Scripture is clear that God is an exception to the "all things" said to be created by Christ. Where?

    "For the scripture says, ‘God put all things under his feet.’ It is clear, of course, that the words ‘all things [Gk., pánta]’ do not include God himself, who puts all things under Christ." (1 Corinthians 15:27, Good News Testament)

    The Greek pánta is thus being defined in Scripture itself. Hence, it is not Scriptural to conclude that the expression "all" or "all other things" is always all-encompassing. Often it has limits or exceptions. It does not always indicate the inclusion or exclusion of everyone or everything else.

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Hi Wonderment,

    The reverse is true also. For example, WT has taken advantage of the truth of what you said to render 1Tim 2:4 as "all sorts of people . . ."

    This rendering is necessary for the NWT since WT holds that only 144,000 are invited into the new covenant. Thus "all sorts of" people can be invited into the covenant, but "all" can't, per the WT. But the passage sets "all men/people" (anarthrous) opposite of "the man" (Christ Jesus, articular) who mediated the covenant, thus, arguing that the invitation is open to "all men/people", that is, all of mankind. (Compare Acts 17:30)

    Anyways, thanks for posting the review of pas. (I might repost this elsewhere for easy reference. I'll make sure to credit you.)

  • careful
    careful

    Thx, Wonderment for the post. I was reading Acts recently and noted how the "all" in 3:18 certainly does not mean ALL in an absolute sense. There Peter says, "God foretold by the mouths of all the prophets (πάντων τῶν προφητῶν), that his Christ should suffer ..." Of course, some of the prophets never mention the Messiah at all, and only a few of them speak of his suffering.

    As for 1 Tim. 2:4, other factors are likely involved. First, that the plural of πᾶς can indeed mean "all sorts of" is clear from entry number 5 for that word in the 2nd revision by Danker of the Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich NT Greek lexicon (BDAG, p. 784). There are 25 NT examples listed under that definition. 1 Tim. 2:4 is not present but then it is unlikely that the lexicographers meant the entry to be exhaustive. Second, it is likely that Fred Franz was influenced by the earlier context. In verse 1 the writer exhorts Timothy to offer prayers ὑπὲρ πάντων ἀνθρώπων. Does that mean on behalf of all men/people in an absolute sense? Given other statements reflecting Christian doctrines elsewhere in the NT, like 1 John 5:16, Mark 3:29, and probably Matt. 18:17, one must ask whether the author of 1 Tim. wanted Timothy to pray for ALL people in an absolute sense. "All sorts of" here then may make good sense. If that is so, then continuing that thought 3 verses later may be viewed as at work.

    BTW, I'm not defending Fred Franz or the NWT per se here. Rather I'm looking at factors not mentioned by Bobcat that may have been in play, beside the WTS's taking the 144,000 in Revelation literally. Furthermore, just because God wants all to be saved, that does not all will, given the free will that humans possess.

  • TD
    TD

    I'm sorry I missed this thread. Thank you!

    People have a tendency to treat Ancient Greek as a cipher that decodes directly into English, which is very frustrating.

    Your example from Genesis is especially illustrative of your point: --ὅτι αὕτη μήτηρ πάντων τῶν ζώντων. (3:20 or 21 depending on what LXX you have.)

  • RubaDub
    RubaDub

    All, everyone, everything, etc. mean nothing unless it is logically identified and put into the proper context.

    We have heard many times (if your are/were a JW) comments by some after an assembly about how "everyone" enjoyed it, "all" were encouraged, etc. etc. etc.

    In reality, about 5% were actually listening, about 35% didn't want to be there, and the other 60% were on auto-pilot and just nodded, laughed or clapped when speaker would raise his voice and expect some kind of response.

    These words really mean nothing by themselves.

    Rub a Dub

  • eyeuse2badub
    eyeuse2badub

    The simply words, "all", "everyone", "everything", and the ever popular word "soon" have one meaning to normal rational, logical persons, and quite another meaning to those in watchtower-land.

    just saying!

  • JoenB75
    JoenB75

    Yes indeed. All means all within a context. But various groups want all to mean this and that. It is not just the JWs. There are many others. Calvinists have been busy telling us that all or the world means a few.

    When it says all things were created in Christ (Colossians 1.16) and the statement is attacked, we must ask who do you think was not created? Then the JWs can start looking for evidence for any teaching of a created a god that created all [other] things. When it says all things reconciled in Christ (Colossians 1:20), we must ask if the few of the narrow path of Matthew 7:13 are spoken of here. No. Some other group is spoken of.

    I sense the reason they add [other] in John 1.3 and Colossians 1:16 is to emphasis low Arianism. In high / semi Arianism Jesus is not "a god" and he is not on par with other creatures. Here they wanted to emphasize that this a god was a creature not to be worshipped. But you can wonder why they felt the need to add others and at the same time later produce a paper like this?

    Most of the watchtower quoted verses are taken out of their context. We would use language in the same way today. “Everybody” came to the show. If you want to use the same criteria for creation and salvation be my guest. Matt 10:22 “you will be hated by everyone” must be limited to those the believer came across and in general the Christians were hated. But the context shows exceptions to “everyone”, namely the one being spoken to. Genesis 3:20? Genesis 3:15. Context. Creation is sustained through Christ (again, Colossians 1:16-20).

    Context is the big problem in JW religion. They say a lot and then they quote some verses that seem to support the thought. But context of the Bible passages is often ignored.

  • redvip2000
    redvip2000

    One must wonder if an all-powerful, all-knowing god, would not be able to foresee that humans in the future would be bickering on this one point, to the extend that they must engage is grammatical debate If this god was actually all-knowing and smart, he would make sure to be pretty clear with his words, and there would be no room for discussion.

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    JoenB75 wrote: Most of the watchtower quoted verses are taken out of their context. We would use language in the same way today. “Everybody” came to the show. If you want to use the same criteria for creation and salvation be my guest. Matt 10:22 “you will be hated by everyone” must be limited to those the believer came across and in general the Christians were hated. But the context shows exceptions to “everyone”, namely the one being spoken to. Genesis 3:20? Genesis 3:15. Context. Creation is sustained through Christ (again, Colossians 1:16-20).

    The author of Colossians never stated that Jesus is God almighty. He did say however, that "God was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1:3) He added that Christ was "the image of the invisible God" (1:15); that "God was pleased that have all the fullness to dwell in him [Christ]." (Col 1.19) If Christ was God, would he have any need for someone else in the universe fill him up with the immensity of wisdom and divineness? (Compare Col 1.19 with 2:9,10)

    Christ is further described to be "seated at the right hand of God." (3:1) Someone "seated at the right hand of God" cannot be one and the same as God, who is at the center of it all. Chapter one tells us that "all things [Greek: panta] have been created through Christ and for him." (Col 1.16)

    Was the author of these words pushing the idea that Christ is God? Not according to Paul, who wrote both Colossians and the epistles to the Corinthians. Paul, writing as a Jew, knew very well that Christ's gained lofty position would never overtake God's position as Sovereign Lord, as some posters imply here.

    Paul wrote: “But when it says that ‘everything’ has been subjected [to Christ], obviously the word [pánta] does not include God, who is himself the one subjecting everything to the Messiah.” (1 Cor. 15:27, Complete Jewish Bible)

    Please take notice that the biblical author used the same Greek word in this verse as he did in the controversial passage at Colossians chapter one. What does this mean? Simply that the biblical authors of the Bible frequently assigned to the Greek "panta" the same meaning we moderns give to the word "all" or "everything." In other words, "all" is often used as a hyperbole, an exaggeration. It is like someone saying, "everybody loves football," which is not true, since some individuals want nothing to do with sports. In this example, "everybody" means "many," not "all" individually.

    According to Paul, the word "all," when used of Christ, does not include God in the description. God is the ultimate exception to the greatness of Christ. No wonder Christ himself stated that ‘his Father, God, was greater than him.’ (John 14.28)

    The rejection of the doctrine of "docetism" (= the belief that his human form on earth was an illusion) can be done entirely without enforcing the concept that Christ is uncreated. Paul does not provide any evidence that the rejection of docetism must require the belief that Christ was uncreated. On the contrary, he makes clear that Christ was "the firstborn of all creation," which in normal language (without seeing this through trinitarian glasses) is taken to mean, like the apostle John did, that he was "the beginning of the creation by God." (Rev 3.14)

  • jw-verite
    jw-verite

    Thank you but I think John is pretty absolute when he writes :

    "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (Jn 1:3)

    I think this verse clearly excludes Jesus from any form of creation, don't you ?

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