by Sea Breeze 70 Replies latest social current
---a position of we dont know --Even energy has to have an origin of its existence. MF:
why? what ever happened to the concept of infinity, even expressed mathematically as the sleeping 8 ?
just because we dont like it, can not picture / comprehend it, will not 'will' it out of existence.
But the Op is correct, if you are strictly limited to stick to the material, the stuff we have right now in this short - lived universe, you are on safer grounds.
Arguing over theoretical concepts without backing of some evidence leads to ???
........maybe a dog trying to catch his tail
The origin of information is a big problem for materialists.
Why ?
Well for one because information itself isn't material. I think true materialists must deny its existence or at least hand wave it away. Once information is accepted as real (albeit immaterial) then the whole materialist worldview gets pretty shaky.
Google Dictionary:
Where does information come from if not from a mind??
I think true materialists must deny its existence or at least hand wave it away.
So that would the philosophy of illogical assumption ?
Where does information come from if not from a mind??
True that could be said of spiritualists as well though.
Atheists compose their ideologies based upon evidence of matter., spiritualists compose their ideologies upon hearsay, imagination and human ignorance.
We all have a choice to where we want to set are aspirations.
I like atheism myself because it leaves the responsibility of improving the human experience toward are selves, rather to wait on a god of ancient mythological hearsay to improve the human experience.
The fact that humanity hasn't envisioned any new gods for very long time tells a story in itself doesn't it ?
Even energy has to have an origin of its existence.MF:
This type of reasoning is akin to kicking the can down the road. because it implies the act of creating, a source that itself needs to come into existing. and so on it goes.
if we extrapolate the "known" about energy into the past, beyond the Big Bang Beginning, we can be comfortable with the assumption that time and energy are fundamental, uncreated, infinite in age,unthinkable it is t us creatures of this limited, and limiting universe.
Once information is accepted as real (albeit immaterial) SB:
Interesting point. Yes right now we need carriers, embodiments for information, but one could imagine the "truth" about 2x2,or pi, 3,14---, existing by themselves, nd potentially to appear anywhere needed.
Do you believe then, that these abstract "truth", natural laws are present even outside and before this universe, waiting for a place, matter to latch onto?
Do you believe then, that these abstract "truth", natural laws are present even outside and before this universe, waiting for a place, matter to latch onto?
You bring up a very good question. I reason like this:
If the fundamental building block of the material universe is information, then it must have existed "before" the universe began. The chicken must have preceded the egg.
But it certainly begs the question: in whose mind did the information originate?
Sea breeze is pulling an old creationist trick in positing that the universe had to come from a intelligent mindful creator based upon the universe's awe inspiring grandeur.
Sea breeze is pulling an old creationist trick in positing that the universe had to come from a intelligent ---MF :
The alternative trick would be even trickier, proposing that the universe made itself, not even like a chicken makes itself from a fertilized egg, which has all the information, instructions and material to warm up with, but out of absolutely nothing.
has never been observed, why would it be true of the universe? a slightly bigger job?
You are ignoring my reply because it gets to the core of your mistake.
The problem is you are equivocating about the word information.
In normal usage it involves one mind communicating data to another sentient being.
Then there is a technical sense if the word that is the subject of information theory.
You are making a category error. Until you address this you are doubling down in a basic error
And that's where intellectual honesty comes into play as in we dont know at this time but we can only assume right now.
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A question to creationists in their position of an intelligent creator of the universe........
If there comes a time when a huge asteroid comes directly to are planet creating a colossal impact and knowingly this is going kill just about every living thing on this planet, similar to how one did 40 million years ago ,
Will creationists still say this universe was created by a intelligent mindful creator ?
