Control - Whose worse, the JWs or the traditional churches?

by fulltimestudent 30 Replies latest jw friends

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  David_Jay

  Putting aside personal views of religion (and asking for patience and understanding from those who might find our own personal negative critiques about religion in our posts unreasonable), I have found that for myself and several other ex-JWs that it takes years of being out of the Watchtower before you get an honest glimpse of what outside religions really are like.

  Far from perfect, even greatly flawed, they are nothing like the devilish descriptions forced into our psyches when we used to sit hour after hour mindlessly accepting the vomit served at Kingdom Halls. Religion in general and Christendom in particular, despite all their failures, has been the subject of false representation as much as everything else outside the crusty old Watchtower.

  Some are just as judgmental, somewhat controlling, maybe even equally stupid (Mormonism comes to mind when I say that), but with the type of unfairness and uncaring that stinks up the Watchtower...no, that's hard to beat.

  Despite what many of us think about the whole "God" concept, most people find the relgion of their choice appealing. For the most part, many of them are "liberating" to those who join them, Many of them are at the forefront of fights for justice in the world, such as the MCC religion and Reformed Judaism. Even the "evil harlot" Catholic Church is undergoing growth, sweeping changes, and is becoming more identified with mercy and freedom under the pontificate of Francis. Calls for freedom of conscience are sounding throughout Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and other relgious movements like never before.

  Is it all genuine? That remains to be seen. But is any of it matching the lying descriptions of religion still in regurgitation from the Jehovah's Witnesses. No. Like everything else, they lied about religion too. Lying about reality is a form of manipulative control as well.

  Again I personally have to leave the churches and religions of the world to their actions and your own interpretations of them. But one thing they aren't doing is trying to control people by lying to them about Jehovah's Witnesses and, usually, the world in general. If there was an annual award for unjust manipulative control among religious groups, I think people would be bored over the fact that the same religion has kept winning year after after year especially since 1914.
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  fulltimestudent

  Interesting to see a variety of attitudes, in the responses to the question. Some responses are clearly based on a deep resentment of the JWs. The knowledgeable JWs, will, of course. when they meet that resentment, mentally counter the perceived anger, by recalling a biblical text such as Matthew 24:9, where Jesus is supposed to have said:

  "Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers." (NLT)

  or John 17:14, where Jesus is portrayed as praying to his heavenly father about his followers:

  I have given them your word. And the world hates them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world.

  Your words (if indicating hate) confirm their faith, so when ex-witnesses talk 'hate' they (JWs), recalling the words of Jesus, shut down their thought processes and recall only what Jesus said - been there, done that !!!!
  

  I agree with the comments that in the main, conventional churches, no longer attempt to exercise too much control. Attempts to do so usually result (these days) in falling attendances. But historically, there's a different story. Perhaps the most infamous attempt to control was the religious inquisition of the Catholic church, and even if its true that the torture associated with that era was performed by the state, it was nonetheless instigated by the Church authorities. And the actual torturers, the individuals that delighted in causing other humans excruciating pain, were counted among the faithful of the church.

  Even before Christianity was legalised by the Emperor Constantine, we can find instances of physical violence being used to 'control' belief. The most infamous acts of violence may have occurred during the well-known stoushes between the followers of Arius and Athanasius.

  But the tendency may always have been there, think of the other famous stoush in early Christianity, the fight between Paul and the advocates of circumcision. Paul wishes that:

  12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! Galations 5:12.

  The issue of circumcision was emotive in the Jewish society of the first century CE. In the wars of the Maccabees, circumcision had been an issue. The story as described in Maccabees is that even young Levites in the temple had become hellenised and were attending a gymnasium where they exercised naked. They stood out among the non-Jews by their circumcised state. In hellenic culture it was offensive to show the head of the penis, (the foreskin was often tied, so that it could not contract and uncover the penile glans) so the Jewish attenders started attempting to stretch their foreskins and hide their circumcision. In the civil war that followed both sides exercised great brutality. In the end the circumcisers won control again, and circumcision remained as a mark of a Jew.

  During the first centuries of early Christianity the Roman state sought to counter it by using violence. When eventually a derivative of Christianity became the state religion the tables turned and the Christian Emperors used violence against those who wished to continue in more traditional forms of religion.

  So my response to the question posed, is that that the difference is one of degree, not intent. All churches, in some way want to control.

  If you need an example of 'control' by traditional churches, think of their attitude to those who have different sexuality.

  But many of these churches are already, in response to popular opinion, changing their attitudes to homosexuality. The JWs stay rigidly opposed, not just on that issue, but on many other issues also, including the major issue of shunning. I doubt that this web-site would be so popular except for the shunning issue.

  But the witnesses should remember that if you cant bend in the wind, you may eventually (when the wind gets stronger) break.
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  jhine

  As l've said before l'm a long , long time member of the Anglican Church and having talked to a lot of JWs and learnt a lot more from this site l can say no contest . The WT is breathtakingly controlling . l am probably the WT expert in my particular church and l will sometimes mention something about the WT , like having to fill in time sheets , and the initial reaction is laughter , people think l am joking . They simply cannot get their heads around the way the WT operates .
  In our Bible study group if there are 6 people present then we get six different opinions on any given Bible verse ! As said already about the Catholic church we can openly criticise leaders . Nothing like the WT Jan
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  Beth Sarim

  Yeah, most people are in disbelief, when they find out JWs have to fill in sheets each month!!!
• 

  fulltimestudent

  Beth Sarim : Yeah, most people are in disbelief, when they find out JWs have to fill in sheets each month!!

  Yes! reporting was an interesting example of 'control, but I'd contend it was outside the 'spiritual' forms of control, such as jhine probably doesnt remember (just joking, jhine) in the Anglican church. That's because it goes back to the time of good queen Bess etc, when Catholics, denounced by proto-anglicans, were burned at the stake unless they converted. (In fairness, when Catholics were in control they burned protestants at the stake). Now that is control, isn't it? (Wry grin)

  But back to reporting.

  This surely grew out of the colporteur's (an early form of full-time work) who were provided with publications at a discounted rate. They had (I believe) to report their work.

  Bethel wanted to know what they were doing, an idea I think, that grew out of Jesus' parables on stewardship. (Being a faithful steward of the Lord's belongings).

  When Rutherford got control he extended the idea. Why? I contend he was influenced by the American business culture as epitomised by the Coca Cola company, the owners of whom had some sort of relationship with Rutherford.

  (See Barbara Anderson's notes on this at: http://watchtowerdocuments.org/heir-to-coca-cola-fortune-was-a-jehovahs-witness/

  It was that family (Heaths??) that built the Californian mansion known as Beth shan.

  Salesmen had to report their activities, which reports were supposed to be analised to aid the salesman to be a much better propagator of the sales message.

  Nathan Knorr also adopted the principles of American business efficiency to build the

  'efficient' business-like organisation that he built. Whether or not we like the man, it has to be admitted Knorr built a very efficient organisation. IF it had been a fully commercial operation he would have died an extremely wealthy man.

  It was our misfortune that we got caught up with the gearbox, and squeezed through the sausage machine.

  Do other forms of Christianity do something similar? I think that the TV evangelists etc, have effectively copied more even more modern advertising techniques. In spite of early attempts to utilise radio and TV, the WTS never quite succeeded.

  I know some insider stories of 2HD radio station in Newcastle NSW, that would entertain dinner parties for weeks.
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  talesin

  Your words (if indicating hate) confirm their faith, so when ex-witnesses talk 'hate' they (JWs), recalling the words of Jesus, shut down their thought processes and recall only what Jesus said - been there, done that !!!!

  ExJWs are not 'the world'.

  We are survivors who were abused by the JWS.
  
  Do I hate the people who raped me as a chlid? DAMN STRAIGHT That's called 'normal'.

  .

  Having been also spiritually raped, and physically abused, by the JW cult, it is perfectly natural that I hate it.

  .

  Do I tell JWS that? Why would I bother? I choose to vent here.

  
  

  (haha, proofreading this and oops - did I split my infinitive? The horror!)
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  David_Jay

  To add to the information about "colporteurs"...

  The whole "colporteur" thing was NOT an invention of the Jehovah's Witnesses. They were an invention of the British Bible Society.

  When the famed trek of the poor Welch girl, Mary Jones, inspired the first Bible society in the world, those who were hired to sell the British Society's Bibles were called "colporteurs" from a French word, "colportage" which simple means to peddle books. To this day those who sell and distribute Bibles for Bible Societies are called "colporteurs."

  The Bible students tried to create their own Bible society in competition with the original and ecumenical ones (which still exist by the way among the United Bible Societies). The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society was their invention, and they copied everything the bigger non-sectarian societies did, including calling their own salespersons "colporteurs."

  The JWs changed the name to "pioneer" when they wanted to "prove" they were not "engaged in a commercial work." The "filling out of monthly reports" are indeed holdovers from the salesman/colporteur days.
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  jhine

  Full-time student , l did say l was a long , long time member of the Anglican Church but l believe burning at the stake died out ( pun intended ) just before l was baptised .. Jan
• 

  fulltimestudent

  jhine : Full-time student , l did say l was a long , long time member of the Anglican Church but l believe burning at the stake died out ( pun intended ) just before l was baptised .. Jan

  
  

  I'm so glad it did Jan, as a former baptised (i.e. the sprinkling format) Anglican, and a long time ex-Anglican, I may already have been burned at the stake.

  (BTW - I left said church when I discovered that in the old church in the town where I was growing up, there was the 'grave' of a former convict prison commandant, whose cruelty to the convicts was so extreme that everyone thought that if he had been buried in the local cemetery his body would have been dug up and torn to pieces. So they buried him in the church to prevent that).

  Christianity has a long history, is it all honourable? Did the Church seek at times to 'control' the membership in extreme forms? If it did, was it less controlling that the JWs, or was it more controlling?

  ----------------------

  David_Jay : To add to the information about "colporteurs"... (the) whole "colporteur" thing was NOT an invention of the Jehovah's Witnesses. They were an invention of the British Bible Society.
  ...
  The JWs changed the name to "pioneer" when they wanted to "prove" they were not "engaged in a commercial work." The "filling out of monthly reports" are indeed holdovers from the salesman/colporteur days

  Indeed so David, I think that Russell's 'Bible Students' had little interest in being too different. Officially they saw in which 'faithful Christians' existed in many different religions, and thought of themselves as being gathered together. Not so different from the deluded Jesus, gathering more deluded Jews together for an expectation that failed to materialise. However, the terminology used in Judaeo-Christianity percolates through all the off-shoots to this day.

  However, I do suggest that Rutherford was fascinated (whether in a good way or bad way, is something that needs further investigation) by the potential possible in the new American sales techniques, as a means of spreading the gospel message.

  Other Christian groups may also have seen the potential. Think of the Adventist (the 7th day variety) Kellogg brothers. John Harvey Kellogg (the inventor of corn flakes) and Will Keith Kellogg are with us to this day through the breakfast food companies, Kelloggs and Sanitarium. Both saw the value of 'modern' advertising techniques.

  
  John Harvey Kellogg is an interesting parallel to Charlie Russell and we can better understand the JW background by comparing the two groups. (For those who have curious minds).

  John Harvey Kellogg

  

  
  

  Charles Taze Russell

  
  

  
  
• 

  fulltimestudent

  talesin2 days ago

  FTS:Your words (if indicating hate) confirm their faith, so when ex-witnesses talk 'hate' they (JWs), recalling the words of Jesus, shut down their thought processes and recall only what Jesus said - been there, done that !!!!

  We are survivors who were abused by the JWS.
  

  ExJWs are not 'the world'.
  

  We are survivors who were abused by the JWS.
  
  Do I hate the people who raped me as a chlid? DAMN STRAIGHT That's called 'normal'. Having been also spiritually raped, and physically abused, by the JW cult, it is perfectly natural that I hate it.

  .Do I tell JWS that? Why would I bother? I choose to vent here.

  (haha, proofreading this and oops - did I split my infinitive? The horror!)

  Do I hate the people who raped me as a chlid? DAMN STRAIGHT That's called 'normal'.

  .Having been also spiritually raped, and physically abused, by the JW cult, it is perfectly natural that I hate it.

  .Do I tell JWS that? Why would I bother? I choose to vent here.

  (haha, proofreading this and oops - did I split my infinitive? The horror!)

  
  

  Grin - may I invite you to split as many infinitives as you wish. Its not a concern for me.

  And (seriously), I was not suggesting that there are no reasons to hate the way that some JWs' have treated their so-called 'brothers and sisters.' The witnesses share that possibility with all those who believe that they follow Jesus. Vicious, inhumane conduct is quite evident among all Christian sects, and always has been. This thread merelyseeks to point out that the problem seems inherent in the Judeao-Christian tradition. The sins of Judeao-Christianity continue to make the world stink

  Personally, I cannot say I had a bad time as a witness, (not until the end anyway). I can say that my gullibility was my own fault. As a kid of 17 I lacked the intellectual forensic skills necessary to dissect propaganda (of any sort). Paradoxically, the development of some intellectual skill was at the hands of the witnesses themselves. I took seriously books like 'Qualified to be Ministers' ( and its predecessors) which helped me become more skilled at analysing a topic.

  As must be clear, I see the witnesses as just another branch of Christianity, as subject to human error as all the other Christian sects.

  ,