Let Us Create A True Religion...

by Latin assassin from Manhattan 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Noumenon
    Noumenon

    Pistoff, Mizpah answers, albeit unintentionally, your query as to where does Jesus command his followers to form congregations. Jesus gave a revelation to John about 7 congregations in John's time, their faults and strengths. Jesus therefore clearly approves of a congregational arrangement, and the fact that he poured the holy spirit out, the 'helper' onto those in the first century congregation arrangements is also evidence of this (that is not to though that say he approves of a huge multi-billion dollar publishing house that has become like an idol and more or less replaced the role of Jesus.)

    Yes, there is a big problem that every religion claims to have God's holy spirit, but that is what THEY say. That doesn't mean that God ISN'T possibly using one religion, faults and all. Satan keeps transforming himself into an angel of light however, so it is not surprise that all of them claim to be a path to God. The trick is to sift the rubbish from the good stuff, and elimate what are clearly counterfeits. Now I'm not asserting that Jehovah's Witnesses are not full of counterfeit christians, because they most surely are riddled with them, even to the highest level, but the fact they they have boldly exposed so many Babylonish pagan myths mimicking as christian teachings as false and unscriptural separates them a lot from other churches in Christendom in my mind.

    Sorry Badolpuddytat (cute name) but didn't Jesus say that 'all things are possible with God'!, From our imperfect human standpoint it may seem an impossibility that a true religion could exist, but if God so wanted to he truly could. There would still be imperfect humans in that religion, but doctrinally and in it's interpretations of prophecy etc, it could be perfect if God so chose to reveal. Not that that means he is necessarily doing so right now mind you.

  • badolputtytat
    badolputtytat

    Hi Noumenon....

    Sorry Badolpuddytat (cute name) but didn't Jesus say that 'all things are possible with God'!, From our imperfect human standpoint it may seem an impossibility that a true religion could exist, but if God so wanted to he truly could. There would still be imperfect humans in that religion, but doctrinally and in it's interpretations of prophecy etc, it could be perfect if God so chose to reveal. Not that that means he is necessarily doing so right now mind you.

    I just believe that you cannot join a group of people, and say "this is what I choose to believe...1.2.3.4."..a list of neatly aligned doctrines,Covering every aspect of humanity. If "all things are possible"... then there is no need for that. You just cannot be taught what to believe... you can reahearse a list of beliefs, recite them.... but BELIEVING them? There would always be loss of integrity to yourself, wouldn't there?

  • mizpah
    mizpah

    Neumenon:

    My point was that in the 7 churches in Revelation, all had different ideas and beliefs as to what constituted the Christian faith. And although all came under the authority of Christ, the majority did not win his approval. Whatever the congregational arrangement that Christ initiated, it was well corrupted and decayed by the time that John penned Revelation. It seems evident that once the other apostles and disciples who were contemporary with Jesus died, there was a rapid decline in he "purity" of the church.

    The restoration of the church would not precede Christ's coming as Jesus indicated in a number of his illustrations. So, it would seem that the important thing for a Christian to do would to be maintain his own person integrity. Christians doing so would constitute an "invisible church" through their common faith in Christ regardless of their affiliation with a specific denomination.

    Like you, I think we did learn some valuable lessons in the Watchtower Society. In fact, I still hold to some of its doctrinal views that I think are scriptural. What I now reject, is its whole interpretation of Bible prophecies and time lines as applied to our own time...and of course its claim as being "God's organization."

  • Noumenon
    Noumenon

    Mizpah, you said: "My point was that in the 7 churches in Revelation, all had different ideas and beliefs as to what constituted the Christian faith."

    That's not how I read the messages to the 7 congregations. They had faults and weaknesses that Jesus brought to their attention, but there is no evidence at all that they were not united on their core beliefs and what constituted the christian faith. You can guarantee none of them believed in the trinity, an immortal soul, hellfire, etc etc. There were disputes over the extent that they were to separate and no longer follow jewish customs etc, but those were minor matters.

    Like you I do think the JW's have got a lot of prophetic interpretations wrong and the timing of events. E-watchman of course does a grand job of exposing a lot of their mistakes in this regard, despite his ideas on the future political development of the system sounding quite imaginative (not to say he is wrong mind you). Still, it does not follow that because Jehovah has chosen to keep the JW elite blinded to the truth about a lot of these things that they could not be Jehovah's true Organisation that he has principally used in these last days to reveal the truth about the lies taught by Christendom, to magnify his name to the nations, and to show what the Kingdom really is and the issues relating to universal sovereignty. This doesn't necessarily mean that he HAS used JW's to do this, but neither does it prove he hasn't. To say that JW's definitely aren't God's true religion is dangerous, as God's nation in the past has always had serious faults, rebellions, apostasies in it, yet they were STILL his chosen nation. Same goes in the 1st century. It is fallacious to say that a modern day religion used by God as the true religion should be doctrinally flawless, and flawless in it's treatment of it's own and others. Truth in a human organisation is never going to be 100%, until Jesus does return like you say. I see that his returning could be to cleanse and humble his people, who have grown proud, loveless, and riddled with error, rather than meaning he will at the time of his returning FIRST ESTABLISH a true religion. The way I see it the issue is how close is a religion professing to be the true religion to Christ's teachings and the central doctrines of scripture regarding the important issues, rather than focusing too strictly on the smaller things that are more difficult to be certain of, such as interpretations of ambigous prophecy. On a percentage scale, and if one can excuse what may seem a rather unscientific and subjective approach, I would put JW's at 90-95% (depending on what weighting you give something like the 1914 error they teach, upon which all their interpretations of modern time prophecy revolves). Their is a group remarkably similar to JW's in their teachings that might be up around a similar mark. Then Christadelphians might be around 70%? Then all the rest in Christendom seem to languish pathetically low doctrinally, despite many doing great charitable works and being full of lovely sincere people. Even then, if one accepts for purely arguments sake that JW's score the highest mark for measuring up to what scripture actually truthfully teaches, it still doesn't mean they are the only true religion at this time. There is a very good chance they could be, or once were and have since found God's disfavour, but it is not conclusive. The truth will become manifest at the very end.

    It seems to me taht a lot of persons on this site seem to conclude that JW's cannot possibly be God's true religion, and failing to find another religion that comes within cooey of measuring up to scripture like JW's do, they conclude that there must be no true religion. They then start to question the truthfulness of the bible at all. And then some even begin to wonder about God's actual existence. It's a slippery slope. Many also conclude that by their own unhappy personal experiences in the JW organisation, or from observing or hearing about others bad treatment, that this proves it cannot be God's religion. Although that is a natural human reaction, I don't feel that is sensible and could be quite dangerous in that they could be allowing themselves to be blinded to future developments Jesus may yet reveal in relation to JW's. It would be more beneficial to take a more measured approach when in trying to rationally weigh up the merit or otherwise of JW's. (But that's hard to do for victim's of child moletation admittedly - they have every right to feel stumbled).

  • GentlyFeral
    GentlyFeral

    Latin Assassin,

    I've only skimmed the first page of this thread, but I can tell you that the Unitarian Universalists have most of this going for them.

    Also:

    • They do have a hierarchy that most members don't pay much attention to, except that it's responsible for producing a pretty high-quality clergy.
    • They could do better on Bible literacy if they believed it was the whole word of God, but they don't; they view it as only one source of divine wisdom.
    • They will not tell you what to believe. At all. Only help you figure it out for yourself.
    • the UUA homepage -- see for yourself

    Gently Feral

  • donkey
    donkey

    A True Religion....is that like Army Intelligence?

  • mizpah
    mizpah

    Noumenon:

    I guess what I have in mind that some in the 7 Churches did hold to beliefs or teachings that were contrary to Christianity. For example, in Pergamum: "You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam..." that led to idolatry and sexual immorality....."Likewise you also have those who hold to the teachings of the Nicolaitans." In Thyatira, it is said: "You tolerate that woman Jezebel who calls her self a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants...." etc... These were not minor infractions. These endangered the entire church. If this was the state of the churches in John's time, I think they become a very good picture or symbol of the state of all churches today that claim to be "Christian." Churches who profess Christianity come under the authority of Christ. And by doing so, they eventually come under his scrutiny and judgement.

    While I think that Jehovah's Witnesses probably do have "the truth" on doctrines like trinity, soul and hell, I think their major mistake is substituting their organization for Christ. For example, the organization teaches that salvation can only come through itself. (Savior?) It implies that people are redeemed by their ministerial works. (Redeemer?) It criticizes and judges all others outside the organization. (Judge?) These roles are Christ's alone. This, in my opinion, is a major error made by the Watchtower Society.

    It has only been in recent publications, I understand, that the Society has begun to emphasize the importance of Christ. And this could be a reaction to the criticisms of others who noted the secondary postion that the Society relegated him throughout the years. I remember one young JW woman who said "all the churches talk about is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus." I remember how shocked I was to hear this. I always thought the "gospel" was all about Jesus!

    So, I would never use Jehovah's Witnesses as a measuring stick to guage other religons. It was once said "a little truth is a dangerous thing." Yes, I do believe they have "a little truth." But just consider how they have used it to abuse other Christians. And if Christians are found in the other church systems, think of the implication of Jesus' words: "...as you have done it to one of these least ones, you have done it to me."

  • Latin assassin from Manhattan
    Latin assassin from Manhattan

    Gently Feral,

    Thanks for the link, I never knew what the Unitarians stood for until I saw this. It's very interesting so you can be sure I'll look into it further. Thanks!

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