how can navigate if our desire is for absolute truth...

by Ruby456 52 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Ruby456

  whatever the nature of the debate Lane's contribution is a hypothesis - one of many on either side of the debate

  for example he writes "In this book I will lay out a hypothesis - tell a coherent story - that connects energy and evolution. I will do so in enough detail that I can be proved wrong, while writing as accessibly and excitingly as I can" (intro to the The Vital Question: why is life the way it is?)

  then after he goes on to note his collaborations he writes "we are ONLY at the BEGINNING OF AN IMMENSE JOURNEY"

  btw even his entire book is a resolution to that false dichotomy as you claim Lane's main hypothesis is based on metabolism first. therefore I am not misrepresenting him. to say otherwise is to contradict yourself.
• 

  cofty

  You are totally misrepresenting Nick Lane for the third time. He specifically rejects the "metabolism first" position and the alternative and lays out at great length why it is a "barren debate".

  You claimed before that he said religion is of the greatest inventions of evolution - he did not.

  Then you claimed that "the black hole at the heart of biology" is a metaphysical one about what makes us human - he says no such thing.

  Now you have made it a hat trick by distorting the central premise of his ideas.
• 

  Ruby456

  whatever the nature of the debate Lane's contribution is a hypothesis - one of many on either side of the debate

  for example he writes "In this book I will lay out a hypothesis - tell a coherent story - that connects energy and evolution. I will do so in enough detail that I can be proved wrong, while writing as accessibly and excitingly as I can" (intro to the The Vital Question: why is life the way it is?)

  then after he goes on to note his collaborations he writes "we are ONLY at the BEGINNING OF AN IMMENSE JOURNEY"

  btw even if his entire book is a resolution to that false dichotomy, as you claim and I don't agree with you, Lane's main hypothesis is based on metabolism first. therefore I am not misrepresenting him. to say otherwise is to contradict yourself
• 

  Ruby456

  the cornerstone of nick lane's hypothesis is metabolism - i.e. mitochondrial power - ATP. have you forgotten?

  edit: here is a blurb from his home page

  Nick's most recent book, published in 2015 by WW Norton in the US and Profile in the UK, is entitled The Vital Question: Why is Life the Way it Is?The subtitle in the US is more prosaic but more self-explanatory: Energy, Evolution and the Origins of Complex Life. Apart from that, the book is exactly the same. It attacks a central problem in biology - why did complex life arise only once in four billion years, and why does all complex life share so many peculiar properties, from sex and speciation to senescence? The book argues that energy has constrained the whole trajectory of evolution, from the origin of life itself, to the properties of complex organisms including ourselves.

  energy=metabolism
  
  
• 

  cofty

  Contrast and compare.

  biochemists are committed to metabolism first explanations. I tend to favour the latter like Martin and Lane do. - Ruby

  "There is an old rift between origin-of-life researchers about what came first, metabolism or replication. It's a barren debate" - Nick Lane

  Lane's main hypothesis is based on metabolism first. therefore I am not misrepresenting him. - Ruby

  Perhaps you could write to Nick Lane and tell him he doesn't know what the is talking about.

  You have missed the whole point about chemiosmosis. It is THE central idea of Lane's hypothesis.
  
  
• 

  Ruby456

  You have missed the whole point about chemiosmosis. It is THE central idea of Lane's hypothesis.
  

  I agree that chemiosmosis is central to lane's hypothesis - no probs from me

  edit: from wiki

  Chemiosmosis is the movement of ions across a semipermeable membrane, down their electrochemical gradient. More specifically, it relates to the generation of adenosine triphosphate (ATP) by the movement of hydrogen ions across a membrane during cellular respiration or photosynthesis.
  
• 

  cofty

  I agree that chemiosmosis is central to lane's hypothesis - no probs from me

  The point is the "free lunch" provided by natural proton gradients in hydrothermal vents. This is what frees the origin-of-life from the barren metabolism or replication first debate.

  I am going to do a series of threads to explain it in the near future.
• 

  Ruby456

  some info re William Martin (the guy Nick Lane collaborates with) - please see what I have bolded

  http://molbio.princeton.edu/events/event/136-martin
  

  THE EARLY EVOLUTION OF MEMBRANE BIOENERGETICS
  The presence and function of mitochondria in eukaryotes that inhabit anaerobic environments was long a biochemical and evolutionary puzzle. Major insights into the phylogenetic distribution, biochemistry, and evolutionary significance of organelles involved in ATP synthesis (energy metabolism) in eukaryotes that thrive in anaerobic environments for all or part of their life cycle have accrued in recent years. Underpinned by many exciting advances, two central themes of that progress have unfolded. First, the finding that all known eukaryotic groups possess an organelle of mitochondrial origin has mapped the origin of mitochondria to the origin of known eukaryotic groups. Second, the phylogeny of eukaryotic aerobes and anaerobes has been found to interleave across the diversity of eukaryotic groups, erasing what once was thought to be a major evolutionary divide between eukaryotic aerobes and their anaerobic relatives. Data from gene, genome, and environmental sequencing projects are rapidly accumulating for eukaryotes that live in anaerobic habitats, giving clues as to what genes they possess or express. However, only for comparatively few organisms are specific biochemical data available concerning the enzymes and pathways that are actually used by the organisms, and the metabolic end products that are excreted by them in their anaerobic habitats. Similarly, the biochemical role that their organelles play in ATP synthesis is known in comparatively few well studied species. Based on those case studies, the talk will focus on the enzymes, pathways and end products of core ATP synthesis in eukaryotic anaerobes, including metazoans, and the participation of their mitochondria therein
• 

  Ruby456

  if others are reading and are wondering what the hell this debate between cofty and myself have to do with my theme - well biochemists generally don't make strong distinctions between living and non living and this is what makes their work so exciting (I'm pretty certain Nick Lane actually says so in his book). Perhaps this is also a reason why Nick Lane thinks the debate re metabolism first and genes first is barren.

  edit: In the chapters entitled What is life? chapter 1 what is living? chapter 2 he addresses these issues
• 

  cofty

  That has no connection to the conversation.

  Why on earth did you post that? You Google keywords and copy-paste stuff you don't understand.

  I am opting out trying to interrupt your frustrating monologue.