by slimboyfat 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
SLIMBOYFAT:
You’re probably right. I’m one of the ones who didn’t take it too seriously.
Probably if I had I would have walked away from the Witness religion sooner than I did!
MAGNUM:
I’m sure you’re right that they don’t want the average JW learning ancient languages or doing deep research!..They probably know full well that the Witness religion would be exposed as a joke if it were subjected to magnifying glass scrutiny.
Well said SBF, the GB want uneducated and submissive plodders-- not intelligent people who can see through their bluster.
Well that’s one way of putting it. A broader perspective on religion/ ideology in general might acknowledge that conscious beliefs are not as important as we sometimes think they are.
Beliefs are not as important as actions, either in personal experience and development, or for organisations as a whole. In fact a certain level of cynicism or detachment is probably healthy for religious or other ideologies to function smoothly. Religion really is all about actions. JWs demonstrate their commitment by ordering their whole lives according to JW routines and practices, not by mastering the Gentile Times calculation from the book of Daniel, for example.
Sometimes it can be a bit jarring to encounter older JWs who’ve given up education, careers, and families, blithely making jokes about Armageddon not coming yet. What are they thinking? Their beliefs can in one sense appear quite superficial and fragile, but decades of commitment and practice are strong testimony to their commitment that shouldn’t be underestimated. Actions speak louder than words.
Other religions exhibit, not identical, but similar patterns. Catholics for example, who make fun of the church, its teachings, even the pope, yet nevertheless insist on Catholic education and sacraments for their children. They may express cynicism, but their actions demonstrate commitment.
I have two friends, a man who is a barrister and his friend who was a headmistress, they are good friends together partly because of their shared Roman Catholic faith. When I have discussed the matter of belief with them they both agreed that they don't actually hold a literal line on everything the church teaches, they don't take it very seriously, yes-- even light hearted mockery.
However the church offers a spiritual space for them and perhaps more important an identity; a sense of belonging to something powerful beyond their own strength. Facts, religious irrationality and past Papal errors are no impediment to their feelings.
The human heart who can know it?
In fact the regimes were deeply suspicious of people who took the ideology too seriously. People who took the ideology seriously were dangerous because they were prone to noticing the inconsistencies and flaws in the system. Then they become rebels and dissidents
Yeah I totally agree which is why I don't bitterly regret pioneering and being absolutely genuine in my faith because this is what got me out. Once I saw the truth and left I was free, no indecision, no going back, that's what being authentic does for your life. We shouldn't be ashamed of it.
I have this belief that the number three is the number three and not the number eleven. I got df'd for it.
That article about not learning Hebrew and Greek was read to me by David Sidbury at London Bethel when I asked if they'd be developing a web site that would hold different versions of the Bible including Greek and Hebrew. He told me it'd be far too expensive. Pah. Now look, they've got a massive web site and broadcasting thing set up.
I am grateful that at least he didn't pull out a Kingdom Ministry telling me I shouldn't learn elementary maths.
There is a difference between Watchtower ideology (ever changing 1914ism) and Christianity (the unchanging teachings of Jesus Christ).
Watchtower seeks to attract Christians and take advantage of their good nature.
A post by SBF that does not tell about his "joining" some minor religious group or the WTS's imminent collapse—wow, the times must be achanging!
You have point, of course, but let me play devil's advocate and bring up what might be called "loyal success stories" who have spent time learning Hebrew and/or Greek formally, and have remained within the Witness fold: Hal Flemings, Max Wörnhard (who was both a CO and a professor of classics), Rolf Furuli, Edgar Foster, Pavlos Vasileiadis, and Gérard Gertoux. Of course, one could just write these characters off and say "They're an exception." However, given how rare it is to find any JWs who study these ancient languages in a serious, formal manner, such a number should not be so easily swept away. Furthermore, for a theory, like the one you are proposing, to be solid, it should be able to handle contrary evidence, as you well know. Why is it that these types have not crossed the delicate line from apologist to apostate? Obviously they have thought a lot about theology. To them the religion is not just behavior.
Your response?
Even though I was born in, my parents were inactive, so when I bought into the religion during my teenage years, it was almost as if I were a recent convert.
There was a young elder who took me under his wing. He, too, took the doctrine very seriously and we'd spend hour after hour discussing Watchtower teachings. That elder was disfellowshipped a month after I got baptized, though.
From that point forward, there weren't too many people, even elders, who wanted to engage with me. The vast majority of Witnesses would get very uncomfortable when I brought up doctrinal matters. Some even got angry. It was through social pressure that I eventually relaxed and learned that I was kind of on an island. I backed off for the most part.
Eventually I did find a few like-minded JWs, but that kind of "deep spiritual" discussion was largely unwelcome.
I think a lot of it coincided with Fred Franz's advanced age and eventual death. It seems that during the Franz era, JWs were encouraged to at least pretend to be Bible scholars, but that faded away once he was too old to hold any influence. Things started to dumb down considerably staring around 1990.
Interesting OP SBF thanks.
My only disagreement is with the idea that the WT leadership might actually understand the difference. Certainly all the years I was a member they were very intense about the need to take even the most obscure doctrine totally seriously.
Nevertheless I agree that there is a strong correlation between commitment to doctrinal compliance and apostasy. My experience is similar to xantippe above.
I think the many others who have less interest in the details of their faith are more likely to drift away quietly.
