The ransom makes no sense (page 4)

cofty

Joan - You admit that christianity has made you despise the human race. Why should anybody respect your dehumanising dogma?

lriddle80

Cofty, while I know you don't believe in Jesus, I think you did a great job explaining his sacrifice using the Bible and the old sacrificial system! :)

Thank you Iriddle80 - I think that it is important to really understand a subject before you criticise it. Try to present it in a way that an opponent would not need to correct. I think it is sometimes referred to as a steelman position as opposed to a strawman.

truth_b_known

This is actually an interesting topic for former Jehovah's Witnesses and from a general Christian concept. Consider that both the Hebrew and Greek words for "sin" are archery terms that generally translate into "to miss the mark" or in Hebrew "to miss the golden center of the target." Every time you see the word sin in the Bible replace it with the phrase "miss the mark."

12 That is why, just as through one man missing the mark entered into the world and death through missing the mark and so death spread to all men because they had all missed the mark—. 13 For missing the mark was in the world before the Law, but missing the mark is not charged against anyone when there is no law.

Quite frankly, I believe the whole story of Adam (which means "man" in Hebrew) and Eve (which means "Living") is an allegory. Side note - the word "rib" is actually a poor translation. Genesis correctly reads that God created the woman from the man's "side". Also, no pun intended.

So, man and woman are created. Woman is tempted by a talking serpent. The fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is consumed. Prior to this man and woman have no concept of good and evil. As Taoist teach, with out a counterpart one has no concept of a thing, or "if everything is beautiful, then all things are ugly." Therefore one cannot miss the mark if all you have is one thing to look at.

Many early pieces of art depict the serpent of Genesis with a woman's head. This comes from the the Hebrew creation story of Lilith being Adam's first wife, which is whom Genesis chapter 1 refers to.

JoenB75

The "dogma" of the biblical ransom is so simple. Jesus himself both priest and sacrifice paid the price that men could not. Being HOLY death could not hold him, so he was given authority to take back his life as well. JW teach the terrible dogma of Jesus never being raised but instead Jehovah created a new creature when the man Jesus died and called him Jesus. The Biblical Jesus is both man and the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17). He is risen, God himself provided the eonian Passover Lamb

JoenB75

Culfty, Christianity is not about pleasing some old angry atheist. It is about believing in and also proclaiing the revelation of Jesus. There is hope for our despicable race nevertheless regardless of what atheists and eco terrorists may say

Vidiot

truth_b_known - "Jesus only taught this -
Love everyone as you would love yourself
Judge no one
Chose forgiveness over justice
Take care of widows and orphans
Feed the hungry
Heal the sick
Be content with the necessities of life
Live in the moment and don't worry about tomorrow"

Pretty much, yeah.

Can't build a theocratic empire just on that, though.

TD

TD or Cofty can you explain the difference please....I still don’t get it

Since you included me in the question, I'll add my two cents as well

The question of whether Christ died for you or whether he died in place of you is an old one that goes back to the split between the Eastern and Western churches.

Those that advocate the former believe that the Ransom effects forgiveness of sins here and now. Those that advocate the latter believe that Christ's sacrifice simply balances the scales by restoring that which Adam lost but that your sinful state remains.

Barbour clearly fell into the second camp. He believed that Christ's sacrifice erased the effects of Adam's transgression, but found it monstrous that one creature should suffer for the sins of another:

"Let me illustrate: My son is a very wicked boy, he deserves severe chastisement, but I shrewdly hit upon a plan of substitution; I say to my boy, or to one of the servants, when James bites his sister, you catch a fly, stick a pin through its body and impale it to the wall and I'll forgive James."

"But are you not running foul of Scripture in opposing the doctrine of substitution? No I answer, a thousand times NO. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." "And death has passed upon all, in that all have sinned." And in the judgement every man is rewarded for every deed, whether it be good or whether it be evil. This, none can deny." (Herald of the Morning, August 1878 p. 26)

The irony here is that although Jehovah's Witnesses accuse Barbour of rejecting the ransom, they essentially agree with his viewpoint. They believe that Christ simply removed the death penalty that was hanging over your head, but that your sinful state remains.

Russell's rebuttal appeared the very next month:

"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years and Adam died." Here was the execution of the penalty on Adam himself; hence Christ did not die instead of Adam for Adam himself died.

A physician prescribes a remedy for you and yet he does not do it instead of you. And it is in this sense Christ died for us, the just for the unjust. He is the great Physician, the restorer of all things. And thus he buys the right to regenerate mankind by ransoming them from the grave."

"I believe it is possible for a man to live without sin, but only by the grace of God. It is not forgiveness, since the natural man can be forgiven; but it is the free gift of God that is, the implanting in him of a new nature." (Herald of the Morning September 1878 pp. 40 & 42)

This is again ironic because Russell's views on grace and being born anew are far more mainstream than what Jehovah's Witnesses teach today.

JoenB75

Well the authentic quotations (I assume) are interesting. There was always too much low level philosophy in JW teachings. Instead of accepting Scriptural testemonies and loving divine mysteries

cofty

There is hope for our despicable race nevertheless - Joan

Utterly contemptible. I am so pleased I am no longer infected by that mind virus.

The ransom makes no sense

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