by Simon 33 Replies latest social current
you're just familiar with one and dulled to how ridiculous it all is.
Perhaps, Catholicism is pretty ridiculous too buy not so morally repugnant and they are civil in comparison to the BD's with David Koresh.
Its acknowledged that the ATF mishandled the situation at the time but lets not forget that Koresh was a bad MF with a lot of guns and followers that he mentally controlled and exploited .
Jesus with a AK-47 is bad man to mess with, particularly when the cops are chasing him down.
The only characters in this story that are morally repugnant are the ATF, the FBI, the House of Representatives, the Senate, and the White House. Bill Clinton was impeached because he lied about a blow-job. He should have been impeached for the murders in Waco.
Perhaps, Catholicism is pretty ridiculous too buy not so morally repugnant and they are civil in comparison to the BD's with David Koresh.
Accusations of crimes are not convictions of crimes. I'm always a bit suspicious of how the reputation of people that the government has just burned alive illegally is conveniently trashed without real evidence, as justification after-the-fact for their actions.
The reality is that the ATF and FBI wouldn't have given a shit about those kids even if it were all true. They weren't there for any of that.
And Catholicism is plenty crazy if you think about it with a fresh view.
Its acknowledged that the ATF mishandled the situation at the time but lets not forget that Koresh was a bad MF with a lot of guns and followers that he mentally controlled and exploited .
"Mishandled" ... like they filed some paper-work in the wrong draw? Did Koresh burn women and children alive? Or was that the ATF / FBI?
Having lots of guns isn't a crime is it? Unless they were illegal weapons and there is no evidence that they were. In fact there is little evidence of any crimes, just accusations. I guess when you've burned a compound full of people alive that you have to make them into a monster though, right?
He may have been a delusional idiot, he may even have been a polygamist with teen wives. But none of that excuses what the agents of the government did or the fact that they covered it up and then excused themselves.
SIMON:
I remember when Waco was happening. This was disgraceful and I’m sorry for all the unnecessary deaths.
Yes, I believe David Koresh was delusional and the rest of the adults there as well. He was running his little kingdom and getting to have sex with whomever he wanted. But, did they all deserve to die the way they did? I don’t think so.
A recipe for disaster and bloodshed and having the government come down with a sledgehammer:..just start your own cult or group out in the desert somewhere - and then let it be known that you have a cache of weapons. You’ll get a real Armageddon!
Read this and tell yourself was it really the ATF's fault and responsibility toward how things happened ........
April 17, 2003 -- The children in David Koresh's Branch Davidian cult grew up believing they would die young — and on April 19, 1993, 25 of them did, perishing with their parents when the cult's complex outside Waco, Texas went up in flames.
"He never was very specific, but at some point we were going to have to die for him," said Kiri Jewell, whose mother Sherri was one of Koresh's 20 "wives."
"I knew we weren't going to be around for very long. I didn't expect to live past 12."
Jewell was lucky: she escaped from the cult the year before the siege, when her father, who was divorced from her mother, refused to let her go back to Waco after a visit. Her mother stayed with the Davidians and died in the fire.
To mark the 10th anniversary of the fire, which broke out after federal agents stormed the compound following a 51-day siege, Primetime's Charles Gibson spoke to seven of the children who lived with the Davidians, including 14-year-old Sky Okimoto, Koresh's own son. All of them lost one or both parents in the fire.
Harsh Discipline and Child Brides
The children remember a close-knit community in which they were not allowed to have contact with anyone outside the cult. They were taught that there were only two types of people: "good" people who were inside the cult, and "bad" people who were everyone else.
During Koresh's Bible study sessions — which could be as long as 12 hours — he preached a vision of violent confrontation with the government. He taught his followers that his mission was to lead them into the final battle that would end the world and take them onto eternal glory. The members understood that meant they would die.
The children were taught the morbid message too. They used to chant: "We are soldiers in the army. We've got to fight. Some day we have to die. We have to hold up the blood-stained banner. We have to hold it up until we die."
They were kept in line by a wooden paddle known as "the helper," and faced severe beatings for minor infractions like spilling a glass of milk. Dana Okimoto, Sky's mother, remembers being so under Koresh's control that she beat Sky until he bled.
Koresh ordered the men in the cult to be celibate and took some of their wives and daughters to be his own wives. Jewell became Koresh's youngest "bride" when she was just 10, and would later testify in Congress that Koresh molested her at a motel. She told Primetime she was not upset at the time. "I had been trained from a very early age that this was a good thing," she said.
The Initial Assault
The siege began on Feb. 28, 1993, when 70 agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms arrived to search the compound for illegal weapons.
A shootout broke out, and Jaunessa Wendel, then 8, remembers the window above her 5-month-old brother's crib suddenly shattering. The next thing she knew, her mother, a former police officer, herded her and her three siblings into the hallway then rushed back to the bedroom window to return the ATF's fire.
Wendel, now 18, says she understands her mother's urge to defend her children. "What is her reaction going to be other than to protect us in the best way she knows how?" she asked Primetime.
Two hours later, when Koresh gave agents permission to enter the compound and evacuate their casualties, four ATF agents and six Davidians were dead, including Jaydean Wendel. The adults covered her body with a blanket, but Jaunessa knew it was her mom.
An Open Phone Line
Next there began a standoff as FBI negotiators manned an open phone line to Koresh, trying to find a peaceful outcome, especially for the 46 children trapped inside. "The kids were our primary focus," Byron Sage, the chief FBI negotiator, told Primetime.
Sage's team agreed to allow Koresh to broadcast a two-minute mini-sermon on the radio each time he released two children.
Inside the compound, it was Koresh who chose which kids should go. Jaunessa Wendel remembers not wanting to be picked. "As far as I knew the bad guys were still out there, the ones who had shot and killed my mother," she said.
But she and her siblings — 5-year-old Tamarae, 4-year-old Landon, and Patron, the baby — were among the first chosen. She remembers her father Mark saying good-bye and telling her he would see her soon. The Davidian children understood that meant they'd be seeing their parents in heaven.
Opening Up to Strangers
A total of 21 children were released in the first five days. They were all taken to Methodist Children's Home in Waco.
Psychiatrist Bruce Perry, who volunteered to help counsel the children, said that all of them had seen blood, and more than half had seen a dead body. "Their whole world was completely shattered. They were in the care of people who they didn't trust. And they had no idea what was going to happen," he said.
According to Perry, Koresh had threatened the children that if they cooperated with the "Babylonians" he would find them and kill them.
The children spoke about their parents as if they were already dead. On a videotape Perry made, Jaunessa's little brother Landon, then 4, explained how their parents would die in the first battle, but then come back as angels and defeat their enemies: "The bad guys win. Then the good guys win after them because they get up to the angels and burn the bad guys."
The children were reluctant to open up to the strangers at first, but soon began to confide in them, saying the Davidians were planning to die in the compound.
Perry didn't believe them at first, until Jaunessa drew a picture that brought it home: the picture showed the compound engulfed in flames, with steps leading up to heaven. When he asked her what the picture meant, she told him, "You'll find out."
Simon - The one thing I hate about Netflix is how everything is regionalized. That and the auto-play of previews.
You can turn off auto preview in the settings!
You can turn off auto preview in the settings!
You can now, but you couldn't for the longest time - I complained about it and was told they'd had a lot of the same feedback. Feedback gets results (eventually).
Read this and tell yourself was it really the ATF's fault and responsibility toward how things happened
You're using retrospective trauma from the assault to justify the assault itself. You're an idiot if you think that excuses anything. It's like saying "hey, we burnt all the jews but the nazis were going to gas them ... so we're heroes!". I don't think so.
NOTHING that the people in the compound did alters the fact that what the ATF did was the ATFs responsibility and the ATFs fault (with FBI thrown in).
They recklessly endangered people and pumped a building full of both flammable and poisonous gas without preparing for the eventuality of a fire, in fact, they waited an eternity before calling the fire service after the fires broke out and then prevented them getting to the building.
The gas was the same gas that the US went to war with Iraq over Saddam using. Tell me it's anyway OK or justified for the US government to use it on their own women and children.
Apparently they needed sign-off on the gas assault from the attorney general, who initially denied it as being unjustified. They then came back with claims that children were being assaulted and babies beaten and the attorney general, Janet Reno, who was known as a child advocate, then rubber-stamped it.
It seems very suspect to me that they wouldn't have included those claims in the initial request. Weren't they important but then suddenly were? It's almost as though they could have invented the perfect accusation in order to get the authorization they wanted.
But we know the FBI would never lie or fabricate 'evidence' ... would they?
The fires by all accounts came from the BD's themselves so you cant blame the ATF for doing that and no they didn't throw fire bombs into the compound.
Information came forward after the event by BD members saying that this was the religious cults theological doctrinal plan, orchestrated by David Koresh himself.
It was obvious the ATF's final attack was overly brutal ( ie Tanks ) sheesh
It was also assumable that Koresh knew if the law authorities got him he would face the death penalty for killing ATF personal, so he wasn't going to come out the compound alive.
This was in Texas which has the death penalty especially for law enforcement personal.
He knew he had psychological control over the other BD members so he used that power to persuade his followers to die with him all the way up to heaven as it were.
I find is shocking that many here are dismissive to this person's actions for in reality the whole unfortunate and sad event that killed so many was really caused by him.
Without I am Jesus's personal messenger for all mankind delusional sociopath nutter, none of this would have ever happened.
FinkThe fires by all accounts came from the BD's themselves so you cant blame the ATF for doing that and no they didn't throw fire bombs into the compound.
Information came forward after the event by BD members saying that this was the religious cults theological doctrinal plan, orchestrated by David Koresh himself.
This is factual. Ask me how I know.
Just because you watched the news. Listened to interviews. Saw a movie on Netflix. Suddenly people are an expert on this tragedy?
I went to the Waco Methodist orphanage home. As in ,I lived there.
Also met BD's. Before and, after>(the ones that survived). Dated one. Helped one leave Waco.
Come again?
