johnamos, I was really looking forward to your answer to Cofty . Your reply disappointed me and so I suggest a new avatar that you could use. It is the Three Stooges playing 'Duck, Dodge and Hyde'.
JW message becoming more and more relevant
by lsw1961 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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cofty
Hi John
Let's start with common ground.
We both agree that we all have a moral compass. You call it a conscience - that's fine.
Our conversation is about how we know what is right and wrong. How do we make those decisions?
For the sake of discussion I am taking an agnostic position on that question - although I told you I am willing to answer it at length.
On the other hand you are making positive claims about how we know what is right and wrong, so it makes sense to begin by testing those claims.
Your position is that there are two important factors.
1. Our moral compass/conscience is "god-given".
2. God has told us what is right and wrong in the bible.
Initially I asked you two questions to test if your position stands up to scrutiny. You ducked them 3 times so I removed one of them and focussed on the following apparent inconsistency.
In the bible god approves of taking slaves of people of foreign nations. These were to be viewed as possessions to be inherited by children of the owner. It was ok of the owner beat the slave to death as long as they didn't die of their injuries immediately. God also orders the armies of Joshua to commit genocide and on a number of occasions to specifically murder the babies. He also gives instructions on another occasion to kill everybody except thousands of virgins. These were to be taken and forced to marry their captors.
I paid you the respect of assuming that taking slaves, committing genocide and infanticide and forced marriage/rape would offend your god-given conscience. I asked you how you would have resolved the dilemma. Would you obey god or your conscience?
Your answer was emphatic. You did not ask for scriptural references. If you like I will provide references in context for all of these and more but you didn't even question them. I assumed you know your bible.
You said - "my answer is YES, I would listen to whatever he says to do"
In the context of my question that means you would suppress your conscience and obey god's orders. You are by no means the first christian to be so bold. Check out this thread for more examples....
Now I have asked you why there should be a conflict between a "god-given" conscience and the written word of god. It is a very reasonable question and you are refusing to deal with it. Why?
What you have said is enlightening. You stress that the context of slavery, infanticide, kidnap and rape is important.
Is it?
Are you saying that there are some circumstances in which slavery, infanticide, kidnap and rape are moral goods?
Faith-based ethics are not in fact objective at all are they? Absolutely anything can be declared "good" if god so chooses. You have been impaled on the horns of a dilemma [Euthyphro's Dilemma to be exact] and now you are pretending you have a reasonable excuse for opting out the conversation. You haven't.
So this brings me to my second question that I withdrew earlier for the sake of simplifying the conversation.
If there was no god would child abuse still be morally wrong?
You can of course choose not to respond but I will be carrying on this side of the conversation regardless.
If faith has anything useful to say about morals here is your opportunity.
See you tomorrow John
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cofty
Hi again John.
Here are a few references so you can carefully check the context.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. - Leviticus 25:44-46
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. - Exodus 21:20-21
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man... The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man. - Numbers 31
When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the wilderness where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it. Twelve thousand men and women fell that day—all the people of Ai. For Joshua did not draw back the hand that held out his javelin until he had destroyed[a] all who lived in Ai. - Joshua 8
Are they not finding and dividing the spoils: a woman or two for each man, colorful garments as plunder for Sisera, colorful garments embroidered,highly embroidered garments for my neck- Judges 5
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys - 1Sam 15
This account is about genocide for the actions of the ancestors of these Amalekites 200 years earlier.
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suavojr
All we get from Johnamos is...
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Simon
This account is about genocide for the actions of the ancestors of these Amalekites 200 years earlier.
You could replace Amelakites with Yazidis and the Israelites would be the ISIS of their day. It's the same description of inhuman barbarity being played out right now.
Yeah, the god ordering that doesn't sound quite so loving and spiritual anymore does he ...
Fuck him and fuck all who follow such barbaric inhumanity.
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sparky1
Fuck him and fuck all who follow such barbaric inhumanity.
Is that your final answer, Simon?
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cofty
Hello John.
Faith-based morality is looking really bad at this stage.
Would you like to have a go at rescuing it?
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sparky1
Cofty.....I think John is still formulating his reply.
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cofty
Hi John.
I'm sure lots of people are keen to hear how you can reconcile your willingness to obey god and commit infanticide, kidnap, forced marriage/rape and take slaves, with your "god-given" conscience.
Shall I take it to a new topic?
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punkofnice
JA - If that is your answer then it stands to reason why you can't see, but the fact that you cannot see any relevance does not mean that there is not any.
It doesn't mean there is any. Stalemate.
Same with your claim that there "IS NO GOD"...you saying that there is no God does not make it true any more then someone saying there is a God.
I see no evidence of a god. If there was a god, god would make it obvious he/she/they/it exists. The thing with religious people is, they think that everyone 'sees' what they see in a god but that they want to ignore it. This is a very arrogant stance.
If I believe in Thor, Mithras and Mickey Mouse...........why can't other people see what I see? Because they choose not to? No.
Man has invented god. God is a delusion caused by the need to dodge reality for a cozier solution. Things go bad, so people need a father figure with magic powers to make it all better. Leaders need money, so they get it by fooling people with god and religion.
If god were so great the world wouldn't be as it is. God is a fraudulent concept invented by men to get power and money.
I used to believe, then I decided to research the validity of my beliefs. Start with the question, 'Is the bible really from god?' Doesn't take much to pop the bubble.
If god wants to save me, he knows where I am and how to make it obvious.
