Aust census: incomes: JWs falling further behind?

by shepherdless 24 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  konceptual99

  what if there are only low paying jobs/or very few high paying jobs in an area. wouldn't that be a cause of an income level for that area?

  Depends on the area. In most metropolitan/urban areas you can have low and high cost housing within small geographic areas with common access to both higher and lower paying jobs.

  On top of that low paying jobs are always present within higher wealth housing areas through service industry jobs like cleaning, maintenance, shop work etc.

  People don't tend to live directly where they work.
  
  
• 

  shepherdless

  what if there are only low paying jobs/or very few high paying jobs in an area. wouldn't that be a cause of an income level for that area?

  If by "area", you mean "suburb", then I would answer, no. If by "area" you mean a region so large that it impractical to commute or drive to another region for work, then I would answer yes, but there not many such regions in Australia, not many people live in them, and the young capable ones that do, invariably move to the cities.

  Australia is a bit different to UK. Each State has one major city where most of the high paying jobs are (the exception being the high paying remote mining jobs). Australia is highly urbanised, and most of the population live in those few cities. Hence most of the population live near enough to the high paying jobs to get one, if they have the skill or opportunity. Also, Australians are (in my observation) much more willing to move to where the jobs are.

  My observation of UK is entirely different. For example, I remember visiting an elderly couple in U.K. who had been living in the same rural cottage as tenants for 50 years (!). I told them that as I was driving there I nearly took a wrong turn towards a major town, which was 50 miles away. Neither of them had ever been to that town, and I had an impression that the town might as well have been on the other side of the planet. I can see that with that mindset, the area in which you live would control your income, rather than the other way around.
• 

  Ruby456

  konceptual think about the difference in wealth between London and the North. In London people earn more than in the North on average as there are better paid jobs available in the South than in the North.

  another thing to factor in is debt. many wealthy and poor people are saddled with debt and this means that liquidity needs to be taken into consideration when comparing Jehovah's witnesses with the rest of the population. the lower the debt/or the absence of debt the lower the debt repayments (together with interest repayments) would be and this would impact on the standard of living. so this would be something to ask - do jws have a lower standard of living than the rest of the population. I think their standard of living isn't lower than the average although their income may be lower because they generally tend to keep out of debt for religious reasons. debt is very high in the UK and it also has risen in Australia.
• 

  shepherdless
• 

  Ruby456

  shepherdless pls forgive me if I come across as pro JW. I am not but what I am trying to do is be objective to chime with recent currents in contemporary thinking that we stop stereotyping groups to express our hatred of them. I think these new currents may lead to unexpected conclusions. one thing I have not understood is why so many go back to cults - half to more than half of leavers. I wonder if getting into debt which leads to stress and a lower standard of living may be a factor in making people think they were better off inside than outside. if that is the case maybe someone ought to be giving debt advice on this site.
• 

  konceptual99

  I completely understand the issue regarding employment migration in large areas. It's obvious it happens in a country the size of Australia but it also happens in the UK. For example, the Welsh valleys were highly dependant on mining and when that industry was decimated in the 80s then people moved out to find work. Even now those areas suffer low employment rates, pay is low and it's difficult to find well paying work very close by.

  However it is possible to find higher paying work not far from the Welsh valleys. Cardiff is a big city with lots of opportunities. It's not that far. People can, find a job in Cardiff that they don't even have to move away from home for. If anything, the smaller scale of the country allows people to get better paid work without having to relocate hundreds of miles.

  The example of the old couple is perhaps true of a time gone by but not true anymore. London is full of people that travel 50, 60, 70 miles into work daily. All the cities bring large numbers of people into them from wide catchment areas.

  It's true that the UK has pockets of highly deprived areas and I would agree that the geographic impact is not the same as Australia however for the majority of people they are in areas where low and high income are in relative close proximity. Where population density is similar in Oz (all the major urban areas) then I would say it's very similar as well. The difference is that most people don't have to relocate vast distances to find work.

  You will note that my comment was qualified to be discussing urban areas. My observation would be that Sydney and London are very similar in this. You have areas of wealth very close to areas of low income. For example, Grenfell Towers and Holland Park - Sydney CBD and the social housing at Barangaroo (which I know is under threat of "gentrification"). You have housing that has shot up in price over the years to the point where the housing ladder is not accessible for many young people in areas that formally were affordable.

  So yes - areas of the NT in Australia (for example) are deprived as are areas of the UK. However it is not true to say that everyone in the north of England is poor. There's plenty of wealth available. Naturally earnings are higher in London but not for those in public sector jobs for example. There is a weighting but not enough to compensate for the bubble. There are plenty of poor people in the south of England.

  The comment on debt is very valid and there are many outwardly comfortably off people at high risk should interest rates increase or their credit cards get called in.

  Of course, the main point is that the data presented from the Aus census does illustrate a clear difference between JWs and non-JWs. I suspect a similar pattern exists here in the UK.
• 

  Ruby456

  konceptual - what about standard of living. what sort of standard of living/quality of life do Jehovahs witnesses have from your own experience?

  my own experience is that saving for the future is not a priority and many do not consider that they need to get a higher paying job in order that they can save for education, for retirement, for holidays, for regular eating out for buying presents. so most of their earnings go towards living expenses, cheaper holidays and cheaper entertainment and socialising - cooking and eating at home with friends. from this I am arguing that their standard of living is pretty self sufficient and average and not poor or desperate and thus closing the gap in standards of living/quality of life that the differences in income may suggest between themselves and higher earners outside of JWS . This is my basic argument.
• 

  konceptual99

  I think it varies Ruby.

  I know JWs who are very comfortably off with no or small levels of debt. I know window cleaners who have cleared their mortgages by 40, live in small properties and have a comfortable standard of living. I know Witnesses with successful business, those with 6 figure salaries in the City etc.

  I know plenty of Witnesses who live in their overdraft, have credit card debt and struggle to make ends meet.

  I have known those who are by UK standards, poor. Very little cash, poorly paid and so on. I agree this is rare.

  I agree that some Witnesses fail to provide for their future in the sense of big pension contributions, investments and even insurances. Only recently I know of a brother who died from cancer leaving a wife and two teenage children and he had no life insurance. I know of a family member who does not have similar cover. All because wages aren't enough. You can't argue that this is the WT fault as they have counselled about having suitable cover but the reality is that for many the wages of a tradesman is not enough to do everything.

  I agree that few Witnesses are living on the poverty line however there are plenty who aren't in a good position financially.
• 

  shepherdless

  Hi konceptual, my response and anecdote about the old couple was in response to Ruby's question. I didn't see your comment before posting mine. I had a perception that people move less in the UK but I have never spent a long period there, so I don't actually know the extent of it.

  Anyway, this is all a side-track.

  Ruby, I doubt that JWs are in less debt, compared to what they earn, but I don't know. I also doubt that financial strain is a primary explanation for the "return to Jehovahs", but that is a topic for another day.

  Edit: I wrote the above before seeing the last two posts.
• 

  Ruby456

  thanks konceptual and shepherdless for your replies.

  konceptual but generally figures suggest as shepherdless has shown for Australia Jehovah's witnesses are in the lower income brackets. And generally it is here that debt is also most strongly seen as a problem with the single not retired with children having the most problems in the UK. The single, not retired, without children come next in overindebtedness (source ONS 2010). Both groups are also well represented among Jehovah's witnesses and from my own experience it is the children in such families that leave when they hit their teens and then return when they have children most often. and same goes for the second group but to a lesser extent. so I guess I do wonder if overindebtedness may have something to do with it among other things.