Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast 540 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    The only way to reconcile a siege of 18 months leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem relies on the following assumptions:

    • Other verses in 2 Kings that establish the use of Tishri/non-accession dating for kings of Judah are unrelated to the dating used for Zedekiah
    • The author of 2 Kings used Nisan/accession dating for Zedekiah
    • The author of 2 Kings used Nisan/accession dating for Nebuchadnezzar
    • The author of 2 Kings starts Zedekiah's accession year from the year that began in Nisan of 597 ('617') BCE

    No other combination of the dating systems can reconcile an 18-month siege with Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year and Ezekiel's stated years of exile (with or without accepting a handful of alternative manuscripts that say 11 instead of 12 at Ezekiel 33:21).

    However, if the JW teaching is accepted that Nebuchadnezzar's reign (accesion year) began in 625 BCE, those assumptions require that the siege began in January 607 BCE and ended in July 606 BCE. That conclusion is consistent with Russell's teaching that the 'gentile times' ran from 606 BCE until 1914 (because he didn't realise there is no 'year 0'), but destroys the JW interpretation (from 1943 onward). (Unfortunately for 'scholar', though the Watch Tower Society does insist of Nisan dating for Judah in 2 Kings, it also said - way back in 1964 but never changed - that Zedekiah's 1st regnal year began Nisan 617 BCE, so even trying to stretch everything in favour of poor 'scholar', this too is a failure.)

    'scholar' will now continue to prattle on about 'interpretation and methodology'.

    🤣

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    The only way to reconcile a siege of 18 months leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem relies on the following assumptions:

    • Other verses in 2 Kings that establish the use of Tishri/non-accession dating for kings of Judah are unrelated to the dating used for Zedekiah
    • The author of 2 Kings used Nisan/accession dating for Zedekiah
    • The author of 2 Kings used Nisan/accession dating for Nebuchadnezzar
    • The author of 2 Kings starts Zedekiah's accession year from the year that began in Nisan of 597 ('617') BCE

    ----

    The only to determine the length of Jerusael's siege is to pay heed to the description in 2 Ki. 25:1,2 for therein it gives the date stamps for the beginning and end of the siege which durations is clearly that of 18 months and not the preposterous 30 months. One does not need to get into the calendrical muddle as you recommend or insist. Your tabulation of four assumptions illustrates the dilemma that you have created for yourself.

    ---

    No other combination of the dating systems can reconcile an 18-month siege with Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year and Ezekiel's stated years of exile (with or without accepting a handful of alternative manuscripts that say 11 instead of 12 at Ezekiel 33:21).

    ---

    This is the very reason why one should adhere to the two date stamps in 2 Ki.25:1,2 as the primary basis for determining the length of the siege. Ezekiel 33:21 and the Neb's 19 th year in no way disprove the length of the siege as being of 18 months as Neb's regnal years are easily synchronized with the regnal years of King Zedekiah and the text of Ezekiel which counts from the beginning of Ezekiel's Exile in 617 BCE simply affirms that after a passage of time news of Jerusalem's destruction reached Ezekiel. It is all very simple!!!

    ----

    However, if the JW teaching is accepted that Nebuchadnezzar's reign (accesion year) began in 625 BCE, those assumptions require that the siege began in January 607 BCE and ended in July 606 BCE. That conclusion is consistent with Russell's teaching that the 'gentile times' ran from 606 BCE until 1914 (because he didn't realise there is no 'year 0'), but destroys the JW interpretation (from 1943 onward). (Unfortunately for 'scholar', though the Watch Tower Society does insist of Nisan dating for Judah in 2 Kings, it also said - way back in 1964 but never changed - that Zedekiah's 1st regnal year began Nisan 617 BCE, so even trying to stretch everything in favour of poor 'scholar', this too is a failure.)

    --

    Nope, for it is accepted that Neb's first year began in 625 BCE thus it is easily computed that the timing of his 18 the regnal year synchronized to Zedekiah's 11 th regnal year is 607 BCE. ending the 18th-month siege. Your argument about the Russell and the zero year is inapplicable as the issue at hand does not cross over from the BC to CE era.

    Nowhere does the WT Society insist on certain calendar systems are applicable for we have always recognized that for OT Chronology both a Tishri/ Nisan or Spring/Autumn calendars were used in ancient Palestine. There is no room for dogmatism in dealing with what calendar was used by Jeremiah in his composition of Kings.

    ---

    'scholar' will now continue to prattle on about 'interpretation and methodology'.

    ---

    Just so, as these two cardinal principles are the essence of Bible Chronology.

    scholar JW

    🤣


  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffo

    You really do seem to have significant difficulty comprehending that in my analysis of the placement of these events, I have considered all of the options rather than relying on one specific 'methodology and interpretation'. In doing so, I have found your view to be not only irrational but also plainly wrong.

    ---

    If I do have difficulty in comprehending your chronological fabrication then you need to make it simple otherwise one can feel that what you are proposing is plain nonsense. The superiority of WT Chronology lies in its simplicity, easily understood by any reasonable person and that is your problem for you have been befuddled by higher critics.

    You claim to have considered all of the options but you bring nothing new to the table and you show no evidence of researching current scholarship which means that your 'horizon of understanding is limited.

    You must recognize that your scheme of chronology is based on the twin pillars of your own interpretation and methodology as is your entitlement.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    🤦‍♂️

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    Zedekiah has nothing to do with the Gentile times. It had begun before his reign. The scriptures say so.

    2 Chron 36 13 " He also rebelled against King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar,".

    Zedekiah was not sovereign if he could rebel against Nebuchadnezzar.

    Note 2 Chron 36 concerning Jehoahaz "the king of Egypt deposed him in Jerusalem"

    the king of Egypt made Je·hoʹa·haz’ brother E·liʹa·kim king over Judah and Jerusalem and changed his name to Je·hoiʹa·kim; but Neʹchod took his brother Je·hoʹa·haz and brought him to Egypt.e

    Sounds like that is when the Gentile times began.

    As for the OP's question. There was a question from Readers about this. Do your research.

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard
    The superiority of WT Chronology lies in its simplicity, easily understood by any reasonable person
    https://c.tenor.com/PG7TQGmTPoMAAAAd/are-you-serious-spiderman.gif
  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Rattigan350:

    Zedekiah has nothing to do with the Gentile times.
    'scholar':
    Your argument about the Russell and the zero year is inapplicable as the issue at hand does not cross over from the BC to CE era.
    Notice how the apologists do not understand how events are interrelated, largely owing to the fact that they learn their chronological beliefs by rote rather than by analysis. So if their version of the story about, for example, a particular king doesn't explicitly reference some other theme in their dogma, it is considered irrelevant (which protects their cognitive dissonance). In this case, it is particularly flawed because the calendation for Zedekiah directly influences the timing of their supposed start of the 'gentile times' (setting aside the fact that the 'appointed times of the nations' is identified as 42 months at Revelation 11:2 in reference to the Roman assault on Jerusalem).

    'scholar':

    Nowhere does the WT Society insist on certain calendar systems are applicable for we have always recognized that for OT Chronology both a Tishri/ Nisan or Spring/Autumn calendars were used in ancient Palestine.
    Of course the Watch Tower Society won't get specific about the calendar systems, because their position cannot be established when properly analysed. It is therefore in their interests to be vague. However, its flawed chronology of both the Neo-Babylonian period and the entire divided monarchy does assume Nisan calendation, with arbitrary switches between accession and non-accession dating (for example, Insight volume 1, pages 464-5: Asa's rule 'evidently' counts from following year, Jehoshaphat's rule 'evidently' counts from following year, Ahaziah's reign 'may count' from following year, 'it seems' Jehu's 'years of kingship' begin the following year, 'it seems' that Menahem's reign is counted from the following year).

    'scholar':

    Your tabulation of four assumptions illustrates the dilemma that you have created for yourself.
    There is no dilemma for me here (and this doesn't describe a dilemma anyway). The 'four assumptions' I listed are assumptions inherent in your position (and they still don't support JW chronology of the 'gentile times' when examined properly). I have established by analysis rather than assumption that:
    • The authors of Kings, Chronicles, Isaiah & Jeremiah use Tishri/non-accession dating for Judah
    • The authors of Kings & Chronicles use Nisan/non-accession dating for Israel
    • The authors of Kings and Jeremiah use Nisan/non-accession dating for Babylon (apart from the Babylonian interpolation at Jeremiah 52:28-30, which use Nisan/accession dating)
    • The author of Ezekiel uses Tishri-based years of exile
    • The authors of Chronicles, Haggai, Zechariah, Ezra, Nehemiah (apart from 1:1, which doesn't name a king and may be a copyist's error), Esther and Daniel use Nisan/accession dating for Persia
    • The author of Daniel uses Nisan/accession dating for Judah and for Babylon (except at 9:1-2 & 11:1 where 'Darius' can only be reconciled with a temporary governor before the arrival of Cyrus and has no accession period).

    Where a book is not listed above for a particular combination, the author does not specify any years of reign for that kingdom. For example, Isaiah does not specify any years of reign for a king of Israel.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    Zedekiah has nothing to do with the Gentile Times

    --

    False, Zedekiah as the last King of the Divided Monarchy plays a most pivotal role in the major fulfilment of Nebuchadnezzar's tree vision as this relates to God's Kingdom/Kingship as expressed through the rulers of the House of David sitting on the throne at the city of Jerusalem trampled on and removed by Nebuchadnezzer in 607 BCE covering a period of 'seven times' being fulfilled in 1914 CE.

    ---

    Notice how the apologists do not understand how events are interrelated, largely owing to the fact that they learn their chronological beliefs by rote rather than by analysis. So if their version of the story about, for example, a particular king doesn't explicitly reference some other theme in their dogma, it is considered irrelevant (which protects their cognitive dissonance). In this case, it is particularly flawed because the calendation for Zedekiah directly influences the timing of their supposed start of the 'gentile times' (setting aside the fact that the 'appointed times of the nations' is identified as 42 months at Revelation 11:2 in reference to the Roman assault on Jerusalem).

    --

    Notice how WT critics fail to understand how events are interrelated, largely owing to the fact that they learn their chronological beliefs from higher critics, other sceptics and failing to carry out a proper analyssis ogf the biblical text. Notice how the apologists do not understand how events are interrelated, largely owing to the fact that they learn their chronological beliefs by rote rather than by analysis. So if their version of the story about, for example, a particular king doesn't explicitly reference some other theme in their dogma, it is considered irrelevant (which protects their cognitive dissonance) especially the case when dealing with the 'seventy years of Jeremiah' and the reigns of the kings at the beginning and end of that historic period.

    The supposed calendation of Zedekiah is an assumption that leads to confusion especially in relation to the exact date of Jerusalems' destruction in Zedekiah's last year whereby such critics cannot agree as to whether it is 586 or 587 BCE for this is what calendrical theories lead to -confusion.

    The appointed times of the nations has nothing to do with the 42 months of Rev.11:2 of as these are different time periods in Bible prophecy.

    ---

    Of course the Watch Tower Society won't get specific about the calendar systems, because their position cannot be established when properly analysed. It is therefore in their interests to be vague. However, its flawed chronology of both the Neo-Babylonian period and the entire divided monarchy does assume Nisan calendation, with arbitrary switches between accession and non-accession dating (for example, Insight volume 1, pages 464-5: Asa's rule 'evidently' counts from following year, Jehoshaphat's rule 'evidently' counts from following year, Ahaziah's reign 'may count' from following year, 'it seems' Jehu's 'years of kingship' begin the following year, 'it seems' that Menahem's reign is counted from the following year).

    ---

    Such a position is truly a wise position as issues of calendation are by no means uniform in current scholarship which uses a different Methodology. Our Methodology avoids such problems only using such data when necessary thus having a scheme of Chronology that is simple, accurate, faithful to the biblical text and its prophetic outlook. In short, WT Chronology succeeds whereas all other schemes are problematic and useless.

    I put a challenge to you please provide a Chronology of the Divided Monarchy that is widely accepted by mainstream scholarship seeing that you are so smart!!

    scholar JW




  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    There is no dilemma for me here (and this doesn't describe a dilemma anyway). The 'four assumptions' I listed are assumptions inherent in your position (and they still don't support JW chronology of the 'gentile times' when examined properly). I have established by analysis rather than assumption that:

    • The authors of Kings, Chronicles, Isaiah & Jeremiah use Tishri/non-accession dating for Judah
    • The authors of Kings & Chronicles use Nisan/non-accession dating for Israel
    • The authors of Kings and Jeremiah use Nisan/non-accession dating for Babylon (apart from the Babylonian interpolation at Jeremiah 52:28-30, which use Nisan/accession dating)
    • The author of Ezekiel uses Tishri-based years of exile
    • The authors of Chronicles, Haggai, Zechariah, Ezra, Nehemiah (apart from 1:1, which doesn't name a king and may be a copyist's error), Esther and Daniel use Nisan/accession dating for Persia
    • The author of Daniel uses Nisan/accession dating for Judah and for Babylon (except at 9:1-2 & 11:1 where 'Darius' can only be reconciled with a temporary governor before the arrival of Cyrus and has no accession period).

    Where a book is not listed above for a particular combination, the author does not specify any years of reign for that kingdom. For example, Isaiah does not specify any years of reign for a king of Israel.

    ---

    Such four assumptions are of your own manufacture not of WT scholars. Your so-called analysis is just your opinion and is not supported by other Chronologists who have written much on these matters. Your six points are simply bunkum and are simply assumptions that lead nowhere or creates a dead-end chronology.

    --

    Where a book is not listed above for a particular combination, the author does not specify any years of reign for that kingdom. For example, Isaiah does not specify any years of reign for a king of Israel.

    --

    That is a problem for you and not for me as our scheme of chronology works by filling out the contours of history and prophecy.

    scholar JW

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    This post is addressed to those who believe in the Bible, including believing that the biblical book called "Daniel" was written by a prophet named Daniel in the 6th century BCE. It is not directed to my fellow atheists, though some of them might appreciate the post.

    THE OXFORD COMPANION TO THE BIBLE (copyright 1993), Edited by Metzger and Coogan, has an article called "Daniel, The Book of." Note that though it uses that title for the entry of the article, it does not mean Daniel wrote the book, only that the article is referring to a book called "Daniel" (or to a the book called "Book of Daniel"). The article says the following.

    "Date. The book of Daniel is one of the few books of the Bible that can be dated with precision. ...

    With the possible exception of minor glosses, the book reached its present canonical form approximately in the middle of 164 BCE, though the translation of 1.1-2.42 and chaps. 8-12 from Aramaic into Hebrew may have taken later."

    The article states some reasons for that view. For example it says the following.

    'The lengthy apocalypse of Daniel 10-12 provides the best evidence for date and authorship. ...

    The portrayal is expressed as *prophecy about the future course of events, given by a seer in Babylonian captivity; however the prevailing scholarly opinion is that this is mostly prophecy after the fact. Only from 11.39 onward does the historical survey cease accurately to reproduce the events known to have taken place in the latter years of the reign of Antiochus IV. The most obvious explanation for this shift is that the point of the writer's own lifetime had been reached. ...

    According to the text of Daniel 7.9-27, the great judgment of "one like a *son of man [NRSV: human being]" ... should have occurred during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the "little horn" with the "mouth speaking arrogantly" (7.8). Such an eschatological crisis did not, of course, happen in the reign of Antiochus. The canonizers thmeselves must have known know this; perhaps they had already reinterpreted the four beasts who rise of the sea in chap. 7 in such a way as to make Rome the fourth beast and the little horn some Roman emperor.'

    The article states clues to the authorship of the book and then it says the following.

    'Given these clues internal to the book, modern commentators have frequently identified the authors of Daniel and the audience to which they spoke with the observant party of the "Hasideans" or hasidim, a title variously translated "the righteous ones," 'the godly ones," or even "the saints." '

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