A Bible contradiction?

by uncle_onion 42 Replies latest jw friends

  • XJWBill
    XJWBill

    Jan,

    I've very much enjoyed some of your other posts on this board, but I have to say your remarks in this thread are disappointingly arrogant and unworthy of someone of your high intellectual attainment.

    1. Your schoolboyish ad hominem attacks on bigboi, Scorpion, et al., do not help your case any. And they are strangely reminiscent of Watchtower tactics--"agree with me or be damned."

    2. Supercilious hyperbole and blanket condemnations advance your cause no further, either:

    --"We're talking a simple, backwards group of followers of a religious conman, and this was 2000 years ago! Those were the most credulous of the credulous, in a world full of superstition. And yet, hardly any of them believed Jesus. Perhaps that should tell you something? Only people far distant in time and space started to believe those fantasy stories about a magic-worker in Palestine who also happened to be the Son of God."--

    "Backwards"? What does that really mean? Another ad hominem device here that begs the question of whether an uneducated person can recognize moral goodness, or the difference between a lie and a truth. I believe that many of them can, even if they aren't as well-read as you or I, Jan. Let's not be snobs.

    "Only people far distant in time and space" believed? Flat-out wrong.

    "Magic-worker"? "A religious con man"? Come now, Jan. Both terms imply self-serving dishonesty like that of Simon Magus. But surely your own experience of life has shown you that a man who operates like that could never produce the sublime teaching of, say, the Sermon on the Mount. And were the miracles recorded of Jesus used for his self-aggrandizement? Were they not almost always of immediate practical benefit to someone in need of help? And was Jesus really out for power, money, adulation?

    Even if you disbelieve all the miracles, most non-believers through the centuries--including many greater minds than yours or mine, my friend--have agreed that Christ was one of mankind's great teachers and place him, at the very least, on a par with Socrates, Plato, Buddha, Mohammed, Confucius, etc.

    Your arguments lack ethos, Jan. You seem to be speaking from emotion, not cold, lucid reason. In fact, you sound like Judge Rutherford on a bad day, lashing out wildly at everyone who disagrees with you, and insulting their intelligence and most cherished beliefs indiscriminately.

    But I think all of us on this board have had *quite* enough of that from the faithful and discreet slavedrivers.

    Which is why I am not about to get into the "misquoted" texts with you now. Your mind is obviously shut tight against any contradiction, so what would be the point? I don't get into it with JW's on my doorstep for the same reason.

    As a freed WT slave, I heartily support your right to believe whatever seems good to you, Christian, pagan, or atheist. I welcome the opportunity to compare all kinds of views with my fellow survivors. But please don't try to beat me or the rest of us over the head with YOUR "absolute Truth," Jan.

    You should know better--we've all been THERE before.

    Why don't you go pick on somebody your own size--I heartily recommend C. S. Lewis, for starters. He'll give you a run for your money, and a clean fight, too.

    Peace, Jan.

    "If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

  • Scorpion
    Scorpion

    XJWBill,

    Excellent post!

    (Lashing out like Judge Rutherford on a bad day) ROTFLMBO

  • uncle_onion
    uncle_onion

    Wendy

    I feel that Luke was speaking about actually hating your brother. John is talking about putting "Christ" first and by using the word "hate" it is over emphasising.

    UO

  • Francois
    Francois

    jst2laws

    Either you missed my point or I missed yours. I don't make the claim that the bible is infallible. That's a fundy function.

    Frankly, if we got rid of the bible altogether we'd be much the better for it. Perhaps then we could concentrate on the things that really could make a difference.

    As your nom de plume implies, or so I believe, you feel the two "laws" given by Jesus are all we need. That is, to love God with your entire heart, mind,...; and to love your neighbor as yourself.

    Now this is a point on which you and I are one. Total unity. That being the case, why CAN'T the bible be pitched as the source of contention that it is. So frequently we hear, essentially, "Yes, the Golden Rule is all we need, but..." And that which comes at the ellipsis is without fail unmitigated male bovine fecal material. Take this thread for instance. Such phenomena would be non-existant absent the absurd claim of biblical inerrancy - an irresistable invitation to debate.

    Consider Gandhi. He was no bibliolator, but he had the essence of the golden rule engraved on his heart apparently, and he LIVED it, free from doctrinal disputes over meaningless minutae. In this regard, Gandhi was the greatest Christian since Christ.

    Francois

  • waiting
    waiting

    hey swa (somebody else did that before me - kinda cool?)

    Gandhi seems a prime example to follow. Just how many of us do this? As for Jesus, Gandhi even recommended Jesus' famous Sermon on the Mount as advice to live by. Are either men, in their teachings in error - if not taken word for word, and each man is considered just that - a man?

    I think both, among a host of others, are commendable.

    I also think that the problem is the followers in a lot of cases. Some teachers, such as Hitler, Lenin, are at fault also. But even these men knew people, and had a way of saying some true statements - such as the famous "Religion is the opium of the masses."

    There are an incredible amount of persons who don't live by bible principles - but still lie, cheat, kill, etc. Perhaps it's human nature which needs to be modified? There are an incredible amount of persons who claim, and who do, live by bible rules as explained by their rulers, who lie, cheat, kill in war, etc.

    Frankly, if we got rid of the bible altogether we'd be much the better for it.

    Well, the Jews and the Christians might stop fighting. But the Jews are fighting the Palestinians and they don't believe in the Bible. Wouldn't that group who doesn't believe in the Bible still be killing the Jews or whoever? What about Lenin, Stalin and the then USSR? They had no belief in God nor Bible - and slaughtered millions of their own people, and a tremendous amount of other persons who stood in their way.

    Perhaps then we could concentrate on the things that really could make a difference.

    Perhaps. And where is there a civilization of atheists/agnostics who dismiss the teaching of "love thy neighbor" that exists trouble free - morally, physically, politically, or any other way?

    hey julien

    Welcome to our forum.

    To take it as lessons - as Jesus did in his parables (The Good Samaritan etc.), we can learn much. - waiting

    I believe this is how Gandhi, a non-believer, approached the teachings of Jesus (either as a real teacher or as a model). I'll go along with Gandhi - he seems a hell of a lot smarter than me.

    In no way did I insinuate, nor preach, that the Bible in it's entirety was inspired of God, or that Jesus was a real man or real God. Nor did I say that all it's lessons are worth emulating. I qualified my statements and my posts.

    I qualified my post and kept it to one parable of Jesus - The Good Samaritan - which teaches in a positive way against nationalism, bigotry and racism. I have no problem with that. Perhaps you do?

    waiting

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    I haven't read all the posts, so I don't know if this has been covered yet. Luke 14:26 is a case of Jewish idiomatic expressions not translating well. It should be understood as meaning we should love the Lord before all else, even at the exclusion of family if necessary. It does NOT mean hate in the sense that we use the word.

    As to the census of Quirinius, there is evidence suggesting that the Q man was governor in the region twice, and that the census taken was a local one rather than a whole Roman empire one.

    Let me read the rests of the posts and get back on some of them.

    Yeru

    YERUSALYIM
    There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
    Shakespere: Hamlet

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    Out of curiosity, I looked up Luke 14:26 in The Five Gospels. The Jesus Seminar gives these words a pink designation, meaning that, in their opinion, Jesus probably said something like this. A note in the side margin compares this verse to Matthew 10:37 and Thomas 55:1. Below are the three verses and the commentary following Luke 14:26.

    Ginny

    Thomas 55:1
    Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be my disciple, and whoever does not hate brothers and sisters, and carry the cross as I do, will not be worthy of me."

    Matthew 10:37
    "Those who love father and mother more than me are not worthy of me, and those who love son or daughter more than me are not worthy of me."

    Luke 14:26
    "If any come to me and do not hate their own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--they cannot be my disciples."

    Hating one's family. This saying, which must have been offensive to Jesus' audience when he first enunciated it, has suffered the fate of other harsh sayings in the tradition. Matthew softens it by making the love of family subordinate to the love of Jesus. But Luke and Thomas retain the rigorous form: hatred of family is a condition of discipleship.

    The severity of this saying can only be understood in the context of the primacy of filial relationships. Individuals had no real existence apart from their ties to blood relatives, especially parents. If one did not belong to a family, one had no real social existence. Jesus is therefore confronting the social structures that governed his society at their core. For Jesus, family ties faded into insignificance in relation to God's imperial rule, which he regarded as the fundamental claim on human loyalty.

  • julien
    julien

    waiting:

    I understand your point, and agree that there are some perhaps good lessons or principles to be had in the Bible. (eg the golden rule)

    But if the Bible _is_ just an old book with a few good lessons in it, believe me, I can find plenty of other old books with just as much to teach, and less useless baggage (bad science, endless genealogies, irrelevant law codes, just plain blatent immoral behavior).. For example Valjean's moral transformation in Les Miserables is far more inspiring to me than anything Jesus ever supposedly said.

    Not to mention that the Bible has brought out the worst in its readers from day one: inquisitions, wars, mass cult deaths, stupidity (distrust of science/medicine), hatred, intolerance..

    No thanks, I will look elsewhere for moral guidance ..

  • waiting
    waiting

    hello julien,

    I will look elsewhere for moral guidance ..

    Isn't that one of the fine things about freedom of religion - freedom of choice?

    Btw, where else do you look for moral guidance? I know many of us are looking, investigating, speculating. Perhaps you'll share what you've found?

    waiting

  • rem
    rem

    Scorpion,

    You are being ridiculous - of course you were defending the Bible. Maybe you were playing devil's advocate, but how am I supposed to know? And even so, you used a really crappy site to defend the Bible. If you don't know what is wrong with the carbon-14 information, then you should look it up on talk.origins. There have been many threads on this board recently about carbon-14 dating as well.

    In short, carbon-14 dating is extremely reliable since it has been calibrated by other independend dating methods. Using references from the 1960's to try to cast doubt about the dating method is just plain dishonest.

    rem

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