why? water baptism

by lurk 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  lurk

  been thinking about baptisum (and decided to look it up

  does anyone know why we carry on having water baptism? im wondering because after reading up on baptisum johns water baptisum does seem to have been replaced by the holy spirit and fire baptism that john said would come.

  so wheres all the flames on ppls heads??

  this quote seems to me to be a bit odd

  *** it-1 250 Baptism ***
  John's baptism was due to be replaced by the baptism commanded by
  Jesus: "Make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them
  in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit."
  (Mt 28:19) This was the only water baptism having God's approval
  from Pentecost, 33 C.E.,

  First it says the water baptism of john was replaced by the baptisum of holy spirt on ..which we know came with fire not water...then it says this is the only water baptisum acceptable.

  that doesnt make sense does it..fire and water are opposites...and there is no mention of water in the holy spitirt baptisums ive looked up so far.

  So why are christians still using water??
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  jgnat

  The Baptists can answer this one with their eyes closed. The bible pattern is quite clear; repentance, baptism in water, then baptism with the Holy Spirit. One example is on the day of Pentecost itself (Acts 2:14-21) and also the full conversion dialogue with the Etheopian Eunuch (Acts 8:36-38). I don't think there is a single bible example of water being replaced by fire.
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  peacefulpete

  A related question is why was water Baptism used at all? The answer is very ancient and disturbing to those who believe that Judaism and Christianity were inspired by a True God. The practise was adopted from various pagan cults that regarded water as a symbol of purity and birth.(water broke). Hinduism, Zoroastrianism and Mithraism all used water Baptism as a sacrement that symbolized a new life (rebirth) into the cult. Mithraism seems to have originally used blood as other cults had done, (eg. Judaism)but adapted the ceremony to water, perhaps under the influence of Zoroastrianism. By the first century CE some sects of Judaism (eg.the syncretic Essenes for one) had adopted the practice, tho it was not endorsed by the texts that became cannonical. Christianity or what eventually became known as Christianity was spawned in this environment therefore it incorporated the practice. It seemed odd that John the Baptizer was described as doing this when no OT directive suggested it. I was told years ago that "He must have been inspired to do it!" I now have a more likely answer.
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  Utopian Reformist

  I believe the most permanent and monumental changes in life occur on a personal level. I say because it is a religious "crutch or penchant" to associate any growth or progress with a ritual or public display.
  
  I know the bible readers will say that you are supposed to make your progress manifest and declare your faith publicly, but I humbly ask you to stop for a second and THINK.
  
  Why is it so important to attract attention and display your personal growth? Who is to be impressed or influenced into following your example? If your example is followed, are the followers making personal decisions or surrendering to group dynamics and peer pressure?
  
  It is the goal of all religious leadership to market their products and display them to attract new customers. Using a well crafted and almost cleverly designed written manual to organize followers into place and delegate and promote fear, superstition, paranoia which can only be prevented by becoming a member of the group.
  
  All religions require a ceremonial induction to symbolize the power of the beliefs being represented and the appeal of the group. Be careful.
  
  If there is a baptism of sorts, I would think it would be a personal spiritual baptism. The kind you make in private when you finally determine to make certain changes or progress in your own life. No one is there in private when you are alone with yourself and are being introspective. That is where the real baptism takes place.
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  Carmel

  My baptism at age 12 as a JUU was one of the most important days of my entire life. It was that day that I realized that I had been lied to for years by not only my parents but by the heirarchy of Jdumbland. That night I made the mental break from being a witless, though it took me nearly three years to physically break free.

  So "hail to dunking"!

  carmel
• 

  A Paduan

  Washed in your tears
  

  comes from a stream of judgement (Jor dan)

  comes from ruling over one's spirits (the Jordan arises in Caes/area Phil/ipi - possession of the prince & friend of horses - spirits run wild with pride when unkept and unrestrained - but the prince rules, like the centurion who says to one go and he goes, and to another come and he comes....no doubt he was friend and leader to his soldiers)

  these tears will come again - on other baptisms
• 

  rocketman

  Interesting post pete. I had realized that water baptism has pagan roots.
• 

  czarofmischief

  Interesting comment about the Mithraic rituals - I've read about the Romans completely submerging soldiers in bull's blood as a rite of initiation.

  I never connected it with baptism until your insightful comment, though. Kudos, peacefulpete.

  CZAR
• 

  SixofNine

  I'm just glad I had this same question so shortly after giving myself permission to think. It helped me "move on" not just from the borg, but from religion and christianity in general, much quicker than I might have otherwise.

  When you realize something so basic to christianity as baptism is simply borrowed from another religions' ritual, it makes it much easier to decide not to make important decisions based on mythology.
• 

  lurk

  jgnat yep ..forgot about the ethiopian.and found a few other mentions of water.

  though i disagree that there was a set pattern clear in the bible.as you said " The bible pattern is quite clear; repentance, baptism in water, then baptism with the Holy Spirit" .i found passages where ppl recieved holy spirit before baptism. with paul for instance that repentance came after he recieved holy spirit. .and again with cornelius spirit first then although baptisum isnt done it is indicated as being on the cards.

  paul and corneiulus were it seems special bt it doesnt mean they are the only ones ever, if we insist on some biblical pattern then it would be possible to deny some person who also recives holy spirit first before baptisum and attempt to correct them in ignorance. the old testement has plenty of people who received holy spirit before john and him being full of holy spirit from birth.

  holy spirit isnt automatic it seems from what ive read some ppl didnt get i till they were prayed for.other till hands were layed on..and others still recieved it before baptisum from god himself or by disciples.

  also you said"I don't think there is a single bible example of water being replaced by fire."

  i found 2 instances where belivers who had previoulsy had the baptism of john then had to be baptised again because the baptism was not " in the lord" then recieved holy spirit when hands were layed on them.acts 8:14-16 and 19:4 .if johns hasnt been replaced or discontinued then weshould have 2 baptisms and then holy spirit.

  lasty no matter how many ppl ive met who have been baptised there is no sign of holy spirit.

  infact holy spirit seems to be something no one experiences any more.

  in the bible the holy spirit is obvious but today theres nothing ... in the org holyspirit is suppose to choose the elected elder......yet im told they say a prayer before voting then vote..shorley all the votes would be for the same person...but thats not the case im told..so the holy spirit must have a split personality .

  no similarity between holy spirit today and the biblical holy spirit..so there doesnt seem to be much of a pattern.

  ppl get baptised and thats it.........unless you counted ppl falling on the floor and jabbering in supposed tounges that no one ever understands.

  peacfull pete interesting thanks. ive read about the temple in the kurdish mountains that is the Zoroastrianism temple of old...very sacred place supposedly has a large pool of water thats some sacred thing.

  water being a thing we all washing with im not surprised its used ritually for other religions .but you notice in judaisum that washing and cleansing is assosiated with judaic worship before john the baptists time.its not a huge leap.