by logansrun 151 Replies latest watchtower bible
Yeah, it's amazing isn't it how many times have you heard-- God helps those who help themselves.
So in a twisted sense, once you help yourself, God is given most of the credit.
Bull$hit!
Note, he's unable to help those who are unable to help themselves. Sounds like the Emperor who had no clothes.
I agree with the main point, and hate to be around soppy Jesus freaks who are always thanking Jesus and or God for every single thing.
Lisa
Mizpah,
just think what humans could have accomplished without the superstitious and religious nonsense? Maybe those things you mentioned happened despite religion, christianity specifically, not because of it. I personally think all religion is childish, but necessary. Humans can't seem to evolve without it.
Unfortunately.
Ravyn
mizpah,
The Renaissance, the Enlightenment, Reformation, modern Science, modern Democracy, etc. all came out of those nations who professed Christian belief. Evidently, the "helpless victim mentality" of Christianity did not prevent these movements from florishing. Rather, Christianity seems to be the medium which produced them.
I agree with most of sentiment here (the modern university, for example, came out of Catholic scholastic practices) but I couldn't help but notice a lot of irony in your choices. Especially if you are talking about typically organized Christianity.
The Renaissance
What was resurrected or "re-birthed" so that it was called a "re-naissance"? It was the re-discovery that non-Christian (pagan) worshippers of Greek and Roman gods actually had already understood the beginnings of science and art several centuries before Jesus. Perhaps we should ask: What interrupted that growth of science and art for at least a millenium?
the Enlightenment
See comments on Renaissance. Ask yourself, too, what steps Christians took to extinguish every new "light" the Enlightenment attempted to shine. The ideas of the Enlightenment had been attempted throughout the centuries since the beginning of Christianity and resulted in torture and death to many. Only when anti-Christian ideas could finally reach "critical mass" and atheists could finally speak out with less fear from the Church, did history dare to name it "Enlightenment." Who was in charge of the so-called "Dark Ages" and how many Christian names can you find among the stars of the "Enlightenment."
Reformation
Reformation from what? Oh, from another form of Christianity that held power for the previous 12 centuries, or so.
modern Science
Hmmm. The non-Christian, pagan Greeks have already been given a lot of credit here with reference to the Renaissance. But the Muslim Arabs should get at least as much credit for resurrecting the ideas of modern science unless you are perhaps crediting the Christian Crusades as one of the means of bringing Muslim science to the Christian masses. But then again, I notice that you never listed the Crusades, specifically.
modern Democracy
I certainly hope your not blaming that on Christianity, too. Don't get me wrong here, I love the idea of democracy, but modern Democracy has about as much to do with democracy as Socrates and Plato did (two of the best-known enemies of democracy.)
Evidently, the "helpless victim mentality" of Christianity did not prevent these movements from florishing.
No, but it certainly tried, and successfully for over 1,000 years at that.
Rather, Christianity seems to be the medium which produced them.
Seems a lot like giving the USSR credit for producing Alexander Soljenitsin.
Gamaliel
Personally, there is just as much evidence that the "periods and movements of enlightenment" were born out of oppression from Christianity.
More progress has been made when individuals have bravely questioned religion and searched for truth elsewhere. Had Columbus obeyed church doctrine he would not have made his voyages. For that matter, the list of adventurous explorers, thinkers, artists, and others who propelled humanity forward is long, and the common thread is they all rebelled against closed religious thinking.
Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Darwin, and on and on and on....
Hey, it looks like I've started a cool thread...hehehe....
Borgfree,
I didn't mean to demean you in any way. I wasn't stating that I would not want to live in a society with you -- you seem to be a perfectly congenial person and I would have no problem having you as a next-door neighbor. What I am saying is that it is ridiculous to say that Christianity is the sole reason why people behave in a righteous manner. It could and does have an effect to be sure. Who cannot agree with Jesus statements to "Love thy neighbor" and "Forgive men as you wish to be forgiven"? Fine principles, no doubt about that. But -- but -- they are not unique to Christianity. You will find similar standards in practically all the great world religions and among the great philosophers, some of whom were ardent atheists. Siddhartha Gautama, Ghandi, Spinoza, Einstein, the Dalai Lama were and are all great and noble men -- not one of them professed Christian belief. So being a "nice person" has little directly to do with Christianity.
Beyond the moral axioms Christ preached (not all of which I agree with) I think there is a great danger to much of Christian belief. Or Jewish. Or Muslim, etc. Any religion taken to be literally and 100% without error is a dangerous belief system. I'm sorry you fail to see this.
Modern science has time and time again shown the Bible to be at odds with the facts. Biology, geology, physics, and at times, psychology all have wounded Scripture to the point where it becomes laughable to hold to a fundamentalistic view of the Bible (and you are a fundamentalist according to what I can see). Stating, "the universe is complex and wonderous" does nothing to prove the Bible true. When I was a Bible-believer and I compared what I studied in Scripture with the wonders of the universe I couldn't help but conclude that the Bible appeared to be the work of a child, an adolescent god, compared to the masterpiece which is the universe. Sorry, I see no connection with the old Yahweh and quantum physics or microbiology. None.
Your defense of the Ransom is classic apologetica. It's like a lawyer that must defend a murderer and will come up with -- please excuse me -- whatever they can pull out of their ass to get a "not guilty" verdict. Your "we don't know what would have happened if God didn't do things this way" plea sidesteps the issue and makes your position unfalsifyable. In short it appears as if nothing can be said, done or shown to persuade you to see the Judeo-Christian position as false, even partially false. Now you have crossed the line into what can only be called unshakeable belief no matter what evidence or logic confronts it. I am forced to call that what it is -- grossly and unequivically irrational.
Bradley
As for the drowning analogy. How about viewing Adam as the Captain of the Titanic? It wasn't the passengers fault, but they still needed saving
Bradley:
Hey, it looks like I've started a cool thread...hehehe....
Now, now - self praise is no praise at all
~goes back to chomping popcorn~
It's not my thread, I am just commenting too.
But, ask yourself for a moment, does it really seem logial for an all powerful being to "lock" all universal laws together in a binding fashion so that any change alters the operation of everything?
No, it doesn't, but I think the laws we are speaking of are limited to human life, whether we will go on as a human race or become extinct. I have to believe though, that the Creator used the best way possible to arrive at the salvation of the human race. If that were not so, then He would not be Almighty.
We have the difficulty of discussing this subject from two totally opposing viewpoints, believers and non-believers. I am a believer so I will think in terms of how God will work things out, and, that I will not understand the mind of God no matter how hard I try, so I will accept some things as beyond my understanding.
A non-believer will, of course, demand answers to everything, and say it is ridiculous if it does not meet his/her understanding. I am not saying that is a bad thing, I would like to know all of the answers but again as a believer I will take some things on faith.
It is obvious that the Creator can, and has in the past, changed some of the basic laws as we know them, according to the bible. The bible story of the three Hebrews being thrown into the furnace and coming out without even having their hair singed is an example. Why God would change laws in one case and not others I do not know. I believe in that Creator, so I can only accept that He is doing the best for everyone, in the long run.
Borgfree
Little Toe,
As for the drowning analogy. How about viewing Adam as the Captain of the Titanic? It wasn't the passengers fault, but they still needed saving
And so would God be the iceburg?
Bradley
Nawww, the iceberg was tree shaped, which God had already warned him about.
In short it appears as if nothing can be said, done or shown to make the Judeo-Christian position to be false, even partially false. Now you have crossed the line into what can only be called unshakeable belief no matter what evidence or logic confronts it. I am forced to call that what it is -- grossly and unequivically irrational.
Any theory that is not falsifiable is most probably wrong.
rem
