Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon 49 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Religion does not save anyone. I would never ask someone to join a religion. God accepts every Christian absolutely just as He does His only begotten Son. The disciples preached Jesus, not religion. As many as receive Him are given a new identity as children of God. (John 1: 12).

    Every person who receives the Son has life eternal.

    I John 5: 1, 9 - 13

    1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him....

    9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

    10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

    11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    Take it from the apostles: If you want to be right with God, forget religion; ask and you will receive. When you receive Him, you receive His righteousness, His Spirit, His salvation.

  • James Mixon
    James Mixon

    "Every person who receives the Son has life eternal". OK, both Muslims and Orthodox Christians believe that Jesus was miraculously born without a human biological father, by the will of God. Mormons believe J.C. is literally the son of God, the Savior and redeemer. In other words must religious organization believe Jesus the Son of God, so why are 99% of religious organization wrong....

  • George One Time
    George One Time

    Interesting to find Cold Steel in the discussion here. In the Netherlands I had a few discussions with mormons in the field service, and I was always surprised by their strong beliefs. So different from the catholics or protestants that we met, who actually were not really convinced.

    Later I approached the missionaries on the street, just to know what convinced them they were the true religion. I asked them how they dealt for themselves with the contradictions in the beliefs of their religion (I mentioned a few). The answer was not dealing with the contraditions, but rather explaining how the Holy Spirit had revealed it to them, when they prayed about it. Of course the answer didn't satisfy me. I was a believing JW at the time, but it made me think about my own beliefs.

    Talking to some elders in our congregation I notice a similar reaction. They just ignore the problematic issues in the Bible and the teachings and continue to emphasize other reasons that make sense to them.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    The argument that a particular religion is right while other religions are "wrong" is repulsive to many because, in most cases, it carries the implication that the right go to heaven while those who see not the light wallow irredeemably in condemnation. The Jehovah's Witnesses see their God as merciful and are determined to see their religious competitors eliminated rather than incarcerated. Evangelicals are in the untenable position of, on the one hand, preaching that their God is one of love, but that if one fails to experience a mystical event in accepting Jesus Christ, he will consign you on the day of judgment to suffer in a lake of fire forever -- that is, untold trillions of years suffering while he and the faithful dwell in eternal bliss. But...how one can enjoy the eternities while their loved ones are writhing in Hell is, to me, one of the great inconsistencies of their religion.

    The Muslim Heaven actually rises above Hell so the righteous can enjoy a pleasant evening dining with beautiful women and looking down on the eternal suffering of the wicked and gloat.

    This is one of the problems with religions that claim exclusivity: the fate of others. Mormonism doesn't have this problem, and that's one reason I was attracted to the religion. Evangelical Christians have been known to publicly condemn other Christians for suggesting that Jews who don't accept Jesus in this life can be saved. They argue that this life is the only place and time where one has the ability to accept Christ, and if you don't, you will suffer for eternity.

    But these religions miss a crucial fact. In the Book of Revelation, it specifically mentions those who inherit damnation: “the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Notice a term that is often neglected in many translations: “their portions.” A portion is something that is meted out. It does not mean eternity.

    I could have no part in a religion, nor worship a God that would be so unjust as to torture someone just for the sake of torture. The LDS views Hell as remedial. Fire not only burns, it refines, and Joseph Smith taught that in Hell, man is his own tormentor. The fire is not literal, but according to a revelation: “For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit.” It's this suffering that causes the wicked to see their sins in God's context. So whatever Hell is, it doesn't include people who are of other faiths.

    ..

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    Cold Steel,

    What Jews find repulsive is claiming that people require salvation. Humanity is neither condemned under some curse of sin nor requires a salvation of any sort. All people, including atheists, are inherently very good to begin with.

    Jews also acknowledge that this life may be all there is. So we focus on that. If there is an eternity, it is not entered into by the Gentile religious trait of having to "believe" in doctrines or theological concepts.

    Jews also teach that religion is not a requisite of all people. Being just is, but belonging to a certain religion or worshipping any particular God, even ours, is not.

    The idea that people should be subject to proselytizing, being told they must change their current convictions or even some of their cultural traits or beliefs less they get less of a reward than others in eternity, that I find appalling. As long as my neighbor is just, they needn't be anything more than they already are.

    And if there truly is a World to Come, then they surely have a place in it--not because they believe in anything in particular, but because they are inherently good to begin with.

    Proselytizing, as you know, is considered an act of anti-Semitism by Jews when Mormons attempt it with us. And I personally view the act just as insulting of an action toward anyone else for it tells a person that they have change something or lose out for not doing so.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel
    David_Jay » The idea that people should be subject to proselytizing, being told they must change their current convictions or even some of their cultural traits or beliefs less they get less of a reward than others in eternity, that I find appalling. As long as my neighbor is just, they needn't be anything more than they already are. ... Proselytizing, as you know, is considered an act of anti-Semitism by Jews when Mormons attempt it with us. And I personally view the act just as insulting of an action toward anyone else for it tells a person that they have change something or lose out for not doing so.

    It's unfortunate that some Jews have these views, but Christianity came forth from Judaism and it revealed many things the Jews didn't know. In Christian dogma, Jesus not only is the Messiah, he is the God of Israel and the redeemer and savior of mankind. At the time Gabriel appeared to Zachariah in the temple and later to Mary to announce the birth of Jesus, the Jews had not had a prophet for 400 years and were again in a state of apostasy. Jesus taught them about life after death, the purpose of life, the consequences of sin and the redemption of man.

    Today Jews may not agree with the revelations of God to the early Christians, just as many Gentiles reject the revelations of God to Joseph Smith and other prophets. In both cases the word of God came just as it did anciently. In both movements there were miracles and witnesses (just as there were in the days of Moses). In each case where Smith received authority from angelic ministers, one other man was present, thus fulfilling the ancient law of witnesses. Three men witnessed the angel and the metal plates of the Book of Mormon, and eight others saw only the plates. My point is that the Jews might consider that their beliefs may need to be updated.

    Why would God create man with no eternal soul, give him laws and give them land if this is all there is? And if what we say is true, or if we simply believe it to be true, why would the Jews be offended that we would want to share that with them. (No one's holding a sword to their throats as some other religions do.)

    In our theology, we are not yet sent to the Jews. What began with the Jews is now the days of the Gentiles, and when the Gentiles reject it (as prophesied), it will again go to the house of Israel. Thus the first shall become last and the last will become first. And, as in the days of Jesus, we really have no choice but to make the Jews, at that time, subject to proselytizing because, like it or not, the day is coming according to our beliefs, when the Jews will be converted to Jesus Christ in a single day:

    “And then shall the Jews look upon me and say: What are these wounds in thine hands and in thy feet? Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was a wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God. And then shall they weep because of their iniquities; then shall they lament because they persecuted their king. And then shall the a heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them.”

    Finally, the Book of Mormon prophet Nephi wrote:

    “At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them. And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them. And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.” (3 Nephi 16:10-12)

    Jews should not be offended because of our beliefs because what's the harm in it? If Jesus is the Messiah, the King, the God of Israel, wouldn't they want to know that? If it was he who conversed with Moses for hours at a time and gave Israel its Law, why would that be offensive to them? And if Christianity and Mormonism is naught but a sham, all they have to say is no! We don't agree. But if it's not a sham, we really have no more choice than than the early Christian movement under Peter. According to NT scripture, the resurrected Christ spent 40 days with his apostles, teaching them the mysteries of the kingdom of God. This is the way he has always taught his people, life upon line. We certainly mean no offense to Jews by seeking to share with them a knowledge of their own God.

    ..

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7
    "Every person who receives the Son has life eternal". OK, both Muslims and Orthodox Christians believe that Jesus was miraculously born without a human biological father, by the will of God. Mormons believe J.C. is literally the son of God, the Savior and redeemer. In other words must religious organization believe Jesus the Son of God, so why are 99% of religious organization wrong....

    Or perhaps we could ask why are 100% of religious organizations wrong?

    Certainly any organization which claims exclusive rights to God's approval is counterfeit. Religion can't save. Jesus alone saves. He is our salvation/justification/righteousness. He who has the Son, has life eternal.

    I believe Mormons, like JWs, are in a cult. But being in a cult does not mean you can't be a Christian.

    Mormons believe Jesus is God's Son; Muslims do not.

    Mormons believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins; Muslims do not

    Mormons believe Jesus rose from the grave; Muslims do not.

    Mormons believe Jesus is the only name under heaven whereby we may be saved; Muslims do not.

    Mormons can be Christians; Muslims cannot.

    Romans 10: 8-13

    8 The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    Cold Steel,

    I am not offended by LDS beliefs. I find proselytizing repulsive.

    I am not offended by Christianity. I'm Judean, of the House of David. Along with others Jews, such as those who composed and signed the Orthodox Rabbinic Statement on Christianity in 2015 (and like Maimonides) I don't view Christianity as a sham.

    What Jews find repulsive from any group is proselytizing, the claim that a person requires a change to another religious view and practice, often at the expense of giving up their cultural practices (dress, worship, holy days, etc.) or the demand that they adopt new ones.

    Proselytizing has been halted in Catholicism and most mainstream Protestantism and labeled as anti-Semitic. Why? Because in the past when these religions engaged in the proselytizing of Jews it demanded that they change their habit of dress, grooming, diet, exchange or stop the observance of holy days for others, etc. Basically it is how one culture destroys another in the name of religion. These groups learned after the Holocaust that proselytizing anyone, Jewish or otherwise (including atheist) is more about changing religious views. It is about destroying culture.

    At the core of proselytizing is the conviction there is something faulty about another's convictions. It sets the proselytizer up as jury and judge of another. And it usually belies their claim to having the sufficient knowledge to make these judgments, such as yours:

    ...the Jews had not had a prophet for 400 years and were again in a state of apostasy...

    We had no prophets in the first century C.E. because the era of the prophets had ended. Jews have a far different view of what a prophet is from what LDS members do. The Jewish prophets were not necessarily receiving direct revelations from God as much as they were of such moral standard that they felt moved to speak against the injustices of the time. The ability to foresee events and directly speak with God may not have occurred with any of them. Gentiles mistakenly see this in our prophets of the "Old Testament," but such an interpretation is like attributing magic traits to our sages.

    As a way of comparison, the end of the rabbinical era is now upon Judaism. The majority of Jews growing up and others (like myself) belong to the Post-denominational/post-rabbinical movement, sometimes referred to as "just Jewish." Just because the rabbi is no longer being seen as the guide to the spiritual lives of Jews doesn't mean we are being punished by God. Times are changing. Jews now have at their fingertips through technology the means to research anything about their religion to make decisions about their life. The rabbi (as a religious leader) is going out of style, much as the need for the Prophets.

    There is no evidence that we were then in the Second Temple era "in a state of apostasy," as you put it. Some point to the Temple's destruction as "proof" of this. This is illogical. This is like saying the horrors of the Holocaust, the persecution of the Spanish Inquisition, and the 1492 Alhambra Decree that demanded that Jews leave Portugal and Spain were sent from God because we Jews were "in a state of apostasy."

    But unfortunately, you believe we Jews were in a state of apostasy. You believe that we were not being obedient of God. And is that aspect, that core or basis of proselytism that is repulsive. As Pope Francis himself has been stating through his papacy, proselytism is an illicit act.

    Jews should not be offended because of our beliefs because what's the harm in it?

    The harm in it? Maybe you might need to learn about the Alhambra Decree and the history of my family as we were hunted down by Christians who believed like you. For generations were were persecuted. My language, Ladino, is now rare because proselytism developed into the hatred that spawned the Holocaust. Almost 100% of Ladino-speaking Jews were slaughtered as a result of the fact that we wouldn't change over to Christian beliefs. You might not cause harm, but indirectly others who see your example still do.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot
    James Mixon - "Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???"

    I'm 100% positive that a significant number of JWs are privately afraid that WT might be bullshit.

    Know how I know?

    'Cause that was me.

  • unsure
    unsure

    I have to say, what I've learned about the Jewish faith from David_Jay is refreshing. It seems that if you are a good person, you can have a hope in whatever God may hold for us even if you can't fully believe in every detail of a certain faith. I also like the fact that the faith admits to the fact that you can never fully understand everything or truly know, this ties into my frustration expressed in this thread I created "There is evidence of a Creator if you just look for it". Is that a correct summation @David_Jay?

    Is it believed that there may be some eternal hope after death but we just have not had it revealed to us yet?

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