by atheist_R_stupid 44 Replies latest watchtower bible
Millie210 I don't think anyone or anything will be able to convince you to be a non believer in God, I don't think anyone should be trying to convince you, you can think for yourself.
The more we figure out about how things work in the universe the more questions keep arising its just how it is. I personally don't think god has any thing to do with it. I am not preachy about my opinions.
I didn't mind AR Crazy either the way he was, now that's preachy.
Your username is a tool of bigotry intended to incite others, and your posts are rageful.
What is it inside of you that you are trying to heal by using this username and making these angry posts?
Your message is not affecting others in any meaningful way, so apparently its purpose is to help you somehow.
What emotional need are you trying to fill by using this ineffective method?
truthseeker1002 hours ago
Millie210 I don't think anyone or anything will be able to convince you to be a non believer in God, I don't think anyone should be trying to convince you, you can think for yourself.
The more we figure out about how things work in the universe the more questions keep arising its just how it is. I personally don't think god has any thing to do with it. I am not preachy about my opinions.
I didn't mind AR Crazy either the way he was, now that's preachy.
Thanks truthseeker,
I probably should have phrased it better. I want to be open to going where the evidence takes me.
I am ultimately looking for what is "true".
The reason I personally hope that "ultimate truth" is not found in any Biblical lines of thinking is because I am tired.
If there was no God - no Bible as a higher form of "right" it would actually be a relief from the heavy load of obligation to _______. That I have been taught to carry by the Witnesses.
And I totally agree that you are NOT preachy.
I am actually still a believer who would like not to believe. I want to be convinced there is no God
And I am an atheist that wants to believe in God, but can't. It would be nice to have the comfort that I could see the people I loved who have died, but something is not true because we would like it to be, need it to be or want it to be.
Unfortunately, there are very few atheists that are willing to "talk" rather than "preach"
I stopped preaching when I left the JWs. I believe religion can be a positive thing in a person's life. Of course it can also be a negative thing, so I don't respect religious intolerance and hate, or refusing to accept established scientific facts because it interferes with one's religious beliefs.
I am actually still a believer who would like not to believe. I want to be convinced there is no God.
It seems to me you have it backwards. Why do you believe in God to start with, as if it's the logical starting point? I believe we need to start in neutral, neither belief nor non belief, and then be convinced, by the facts to believe. I just haven't seen compelling evidence of God's existence, therefore I don't believe. I haven't seen evidence that he doesn't exist, nor could I prove he doesn't exist, as you cannot disprove a negative, so I stay in neutral, which is to me is what Atheism is.
For example I cannot prove the Easter bunny doesn't exist, so should I believe in him until I see such evidence? It would be nice if he existed, as I like chocolate, and who wouldn't want chocolate bunnies every Easter? Many people believe he exists, granted they are all under five. But he doesn't exist just because I might want him to. How is belief in God any different?
Atheist_R_stupid,
I believe you are the one being intellectually dishonest, as you are doing the same out of context quoting that JWs do. Here is the whole section you quote from. Please notice that the "challenges" to "darwinian evolution" are not challenges to the theory of evolutoion as a whole but rather just certain aspects, or the challenges were dropped as the evidence mounted. The Awake editors time and time again confuse any disagreement in science about evolution to look challenging scientists think evolution never happened, which as Singh said in his letter isn't even a minority of scientists that would think this.
Challenges to Darwinian evolution
There have been repeated scientific challenges to the theory of evolution in the past, and the nonbelievers of evolution cite them as support for their case. However, the scientific challenges to the theory of evolution were technical and of a very different kind.
The modern theory of evolution has enjoyed success by bringing together Mendelian genetics and Darwinian evolution; although the theory has faced many challenges from different corners, it has survived them all. These challenges have been of two kinds: those of scientific nature that question the adequacy of natural selection as sufficient explanation of change and those of general nature that question the truth of evolution on religious or other grounds.
Among the serious scientific challenges to the theory of evolution, the foremost has come from developmental biologists. Many developmental biologists felt Darwin’s natural selection theory was inadequate to explain the diversity of developmental complexity observed among organisms. Yet 150 years after Darwin, although our notions about the fine details of mutation, gene regulation, and selection mechanisms may have changed, no new forces of evolution have been added to the important forces of evolution, i.e., mutation and selection. Many developmental biologists rightly see the complexity of development less of a problem to the theory of evolution and more of a challenge to their field to explain it by natural selection (Bonner 1988).
Other similar but more technical challenges have come in the form of non-Darwinian evolution from molecular biologists (King and Jukes 1969), neutral evolution from molecular population geneticists (Kimura 1968), and from punctuated evolution or “evolution by burst” (Eldredge and Gould 1972; Gould 1977). As these challenges have broadened our horizons and have enriched Darwinian evolution, especially in terms of the ever-unfolding dynamics of mutational and genomic variation (Lynch 2007), these were not challenges to the theory itself but only to the details of the evolutionary mechanics, i.e., about role of selection and rate of change.
Hi LisaRose,
If I had come out of an egg as an adult with thinking skills, I would like to think I would know to start at a neutral point. That sounds the most effective for sure.
But I didnt. I came out as a baby into a heavily JW world. I would end up becoming daughter of elder, wife of elder, mother of elder, siblings serving as need greaters in other countries, one sibling at Patterson and so on...
I could go on but why?
My point is I am leaving a place of extreme bias. Trying to function in a world without a God seems (at this point) easier than what I am truly dealing with:
the loss of friends, the anger and "guilting" of genuinely hurt family members that think my everlasting life is now in "danger and the sheer lonliness that I internally feel.
To be able to say to myself, I will be what I decide is right in the world period, is not a place I am at but it sounds good given where I am really at presently.
@pistoff
im going to assume you're attempting to show me what the watchtower was doing, but I still don't think that's exactly the same.
You're attempting to say I'm using the bible to support its own idea when what I actually did was attempt to use the bible to explain how it might not be out of question for evolution to fit into scriptural explanations of life. I'm on evolutions side, and you're trying to discredit my argument in favor of evolution by saying that using a scripture to support evolution, which is also in the bible according to you, is circular reasoning. So, in essence, we are agreeing then that evolution just might be scripturally supported?
Also, yes, assuming we do live in a world of gods who made man, it would be a good comparison; because, in the mind of a believer in God, it is understood that this was a comparison that was being made there in the scripture by Christ not by me. So, regardless of what I think about it, I was merely positioning an already made comparison in their own book - not coming up with one myself. Therefore, however you may feel about the logic of it, since it wasn't of my own origination, it doesn't reflect on me in the slightest.
Further, your post appears to assert I was at some point talking about the creation of life, but I was not. This is also the failure of the awake journal in question. Evolution is absolutely, unequivocally NOT about how life began. It is about how life developed. So to be a proper simile in your post you'd have to say instead, "there is proof and historical record of the date and time and means by which the seeds of each tree used to build this house sprouted." Is there? No. However
there is proof and historical record of the building of a house.
there is also proof and historical record of how evolution developed.
Therefore there is proof and historical record of both, and that is a proper simile.
However, as creation and evolution are two different subjects, I completely agree that there is no proof and historical record of how life actually sparked.
My point is I am leaving a place of extreme bias. Trying to function in a world without a God seems (at this point) easier than what I am truly dealing with:
I totally understand that, I agree that it is a very good place for you to be at right now. It is quite similar to what I felt after leaving the religion. I only knew that the JWs were not right, to think about what religion may be right or if God existed seemed too much to think of at the time. I just put one foot in front of the other and hoped that with time things would become more clear with time, and that is what happened.
It was seven years after leaving that I found this board, I was afraid before then, the brainwashing had not quite worn off. I stopped coming here at one point because I found the atheist believer debates depressed me. But still, I thought about things, after several years I came back and finally I realized I did not believe in God. I can read the debates now without getting wound up in them, but I don't often contribute to them myself, I am uncomfortable with some of the condesending attitude with some here and feel it's counter productive.
My spiritual journey has been a long one, with may turns, but I am very happy where I am right now. It may be sacrilege to other atheists (if that is possible,) but I haven't written off religion entirely, I occasion attend my husband's church, it's a liberal religion, they don't have any doctrine and are OK with atheism. I still feel that I am spiritual, which many atheists would think is ridiculous, but that's their problem, not mine.
The reality is what difference does it make if you believe in God or not, as long as you treat others with respect and are a good and moral person? If religion gets you there, fine. If atheism gets you there, that's fine to, at least in my book.
the loss of friends, the anger and "guilting" of genuinely hurt family members that think my everlasting life is now in "danger and the sheer lonliness that I internally feel.
If you are still struggling with this, I highly recommend meditation and journaling. It has been a big help to me. Meditation is easy, free and very effective as helping you deal with emotions. It only takes time and practice. There are lots of ways to mediate, they all work, just do an internet search. Journaling is even easier, just sit down every day and write down a page or two. It doesn't have to be anything specific, just whatever pops into your head. You would be surprised how much this helps, you will eventually see a pattern and it helps you deal with all of it. A legacy of my years in dubdom is some long-standing stress related health issues and meditation has helped me with these, I recently have started getting more serious about it, with good results.
To be able to say to myself, I will be what I decide is right in the world period, is not a place I am at but it sounds good given where I am really at presently.
I agree, I wish you well on your spiritual journey.
