Does anyone think Jehovah is protecting the org. despite all the talk about THE ARC ?

by tor1500 105 Replies latest jw friends

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    What is really repugnant and irresponsible is the WTS concealing these crimes to the detriment of other JWS children and the general public at large. There is a reason why adultery and fornication are not unlawful crimes in most countries, that is the key factor to understanding why pedophilia is a serious crime.

    The WTS internal intent was to protect the outward image of the organization more so than the lives of children, that behavior has come to light in recent years and its costing the WTS/JWS not only in finances due to law suits but the very image the WTS was trying uphold and protect.

  • Landy
    Landy

    Is it too late to post this?


  • OrphanCrow
    OrphanCrow
    fisher: The church cannot exist with mandatory reporting. At least if the state enforces it or if the church starts calling the cops - goodbye charlle.

    Good.

    Mandatory reporting is in place for one purpose and one purpose only.

    To PROTECT CHILDREN.

    The rest of society doesn't give a shit if the "sinner" gets absolution from their church. The rest of society puts the welfare of children above the welfare of a church.

    Any "church" that promotes secrecy about child abuse does not deserve to receive recognition in our culture. It should not be called a church when it is a haven for criminals that harm children.

    Goodbye Charlie.

    Love,

    Aristotle

  • Heaven
    Heaven

    As I pointed out to my Dad, if there is only 1 pedophile allowed to remain as a JW, then this is not God's organization.

    He was unable to refute this.

  • St George of England
    St George of England

    The only thing that protects the JW organisation is the virtually bottomless pot of money to fund lawyers and drag out cases for years if they cannot buy off the complainants.

    George

  • OrphanCrow
    OrphanCrow
    fisher: The outrage that was being expressed about the RCC was that their ministers were the ones being accused of engaging in child abuse without being censured by the church -NOT THE PARISHIONERS confessing sins.

    You bring up a salient point.

    In the Catholic Church, the focus is on the priests who abuse children. The priests - the ones in charge of the congregation.

    In the JWs, the child abuse is being committed by, not only the "ministers", but by the membership themselves. The child abuse is systemic within the entire congregation, not just the clergy class.

    You are certainly right that there is a difference - the JWs' problem is more far reaching than the Catholic Church - it concerns all the congregants in addition to the clergy.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Address the way that JWs (and you) regard child abuse a "sin" instead of a crime

    When you speak of the Catholic priests you call them "ministers doing the crime".

    Yet, when you speak of JWs, all of a sudden those "crimes" become "sins"

    You are using deflection, fisherguy.

    Love Aristotle

    My previous posts have shown falsehood and erroneous thinking in your conclusions above. First you accuse me of deliberately choosing the word crimes to apply only to sins connected with the catholic church and not to JW, misrepresenting what I said even though I have used the words sins and crimes interchangeably to apply to both religions on a previous thread where you also was a poster, and the context of my post on this thread clearly shows no prejudice between the right to sinner penitent confidentiality for both religions, in fact that is what my post was about: same right to both religions as the context of what I said shows, and yet you base false accusation and logic on your false conclusion about what I stated. And you focus on what you conclude is the reason for my choice of words and not on the context of what is being stated and you malign my choice words concluding too much with no basis.

    Then you also accuse me of regarding child abuse is only as a sin instead of crime when it is an axiom that it is both a sin and a crime and although I have never stated that child abuse is not a crime and again you malign me.

    Then you accuse me of using a red herring to deflect from issue discussed when that clearly was not my intention at all as the context of my posts prove.

    If you are intentionally using logical fallacies as a device in order to convince others of your agenda, then your integrity is challenged. If you do not know how to think correctly basing your arguments on assumptions and erroneous conclusion and guesses of people's intentions then you are ignorant. Either way, I have shown falsehood in what you state in you posts.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    You are certainly right that there is a difference - the JWs' problem is more far reaching than the Catholic Church - it concerns all the congregants in addition to the clergy.

    You are wrong more- erroneous thinking. Your conclusion assumes that there is no child abuse being confessed to catholic clergy and because of that JW is more far reaching because it involves clergy and congregants in JW ONLY. I continue to show error in your logic and that just about sums up ALL of your arguments in all of your posts.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Mandatory reporting is in place for one purpose and one purpose only.

    To PROTECT CHILDREN.

    It is an outrage when any adult fails to protect a child -let alone harm a child. Who could possibly do that! It is unthinkable. And what adult could possible desire a child sexually? Yet this is what people do and there are laws in place that govern how to adjudicate these crimes and there are also laws in place that protect children from these crimes. But you are not above the law and if you take the law into your own hands or if you violate the laws you like to violate to stop crimes that you like to stop (such as child abuse) then you are a criminal and/or a law breaker.

    The rest of society doesn't give a shit if the "sinner" gets absolution from their church. The rest of society puts the welfare of children above the welfare of a church.

    There you go again posting nonsense. You do not represent society, the government does. In the US, the basis for society (or living in in the US) is the US Constitution. It is the Supreme law of the land and the Constitution (can be referred to sort of speak as society or vice versa) does not put the welfare of children above the welfare of the church both enjoy equal protection under the law, that is to say, that the US Constitution protects both the rights of children and the rights of the church and that being the supreme law of the land, the welfare of children cannot infringe on the welfare (or rights) of the church and neither can the rights of the church infringe on the welfare of the the children. It does not matter how you feel about that, you are not above the Constitution, neither are children and neither is the church -and neither are mandatory reporting laws if they violate the Constitution -but that is for the USC to decide not you; they haven't, that is to say they have not established that the church does not have the right to confidentiality in child abuse sinner penitent cases under the constitution, USC can do whatever they like, legalize abortion, protect homosexuality AND DECIDE THAT CHURCH REPORTING CHILD ABUSE CONSTITUTIONALITY-but they have not- knowing full well that the issue existed and exists. The last USC decision protects church sinner confidentiality privilege. That is the law and based on that law and more solidly on the 1st Amendment itself, the WT does not turn in sinners. But lnterpretation of the Constitution in the US can change as fast as fast as the Supreme Court likes to change it and since there is so many lawsuit and public hatred against the church anything can happen one way or the other and I would not be surprised if the USC rules either way. But as it stands now chuch penitent confidentiality priviledge is rooted in the 1st Amendment inspite of mandatory reporting laws, Church constitutional basis for not reporting trumps any state mandatory laws (That is church position and defense in the USA) and will continue to be the case until the USC says otherwise.

    Any "church" that promotes secrecy about child abuse does not deserve to receive recognition in our culture. It should not be called a church when it is a haven for criminals that harm children.

    You do not get to determine that and you are not a spokesman for "our culture" Child abuse confessions to the church are protected by church confidentiality privilge laws as interpreted by the Courts but churches base their rights to confidentiality on the 1st Amendment inspite of mandatory reporting law.

    My post above really apples to the US but in all of the world freedom of religion and confidentiality is a trumping human right. We will see how this child abuse / church controversy plays out

    Personally though, if I had any knowledge or even a suspicion of any child being hurt in any way whatsoever (and if I did not know, I would like to know about it) unfortunately I could not provide any spiritual help for such a person. I would have to report the crime because I could not be able to have any emotional peace knowing that a child is being hurt with me keeping it secret. But that is just something that I would do IF I HAD ANY PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE but other than that I would support and defend the US Constitution which protects human rights, and I would not take it upon myself to attack on encroach upon constitutional rights others, or advocate guilt or liabilty of such based upon news reports or allegations or accusations of which I had no personal knowledge of.

    DO not attack my choice of words or my form of expression to jump to conclusion as to what I mean to say. If you don not understand ask but do not misrepresent what I post as I have shown OC does.

  • elderINewton
    elderINewton
    If the second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor, then the watchtower would have never ever lived up to this commandment from God with how they have treated pedophile's victims. How could one ever be considerate of a neighbor by not reporting it?Any other defense would be to deny Christ itself. So how can any faith that uses the bible even think they can side step that.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit