Not taking my own advice, in this instance (for speed) I can recommend the words of one of those who is doing the very thing of interminably discussing the finer points of what is religious truth; Dennis Bratcher, Prof of theology. In his article in Crivoice, Bratcher gives a good and balanced review on the relevant Hebrew words to describe ‘circle’ and ‘ball’ and why they were used.
2013 NWT - Conveniently Circular
by theunbeliever 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Onager
If you do a Google image search for Babylonian world view you can see what the "Cosmos" looked like to people at the time the bible was being written. The earth is a flat disk with a solid hemisphere of the Firmament above it. Above the firmament and below the earth are the waters of chaos.
Read any scripture that describes the world and you'll find that it fits perfectly into this picture.
The flood makes a whole lot more sense too.
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theunbeliever
Thanks for the warm reception, everyone.
berrygerry Huh. I never noticed that before. This JW app sure makes it easy to check for this kind of sneaky manipulation of the Bible.
My suggestion for any thinking ex-JW is to read those academics who have spent a lifetime researching who are without a religious agenda and who are not associated with or affiliated to a religious body.
That's exactly what I'd like to do, Half banana. While not personally a complete subscriber to the Bible, I love religion (in my passive-aggressive way), particularly the Abrahamic faiths. My upbringing has, somewhat ironically, helped tremendously in my secular pursuits, as they revolve around art. Anyway, I'll be sure get around to Dr. Thompson. :)
D/f'd and still attending? You must have a strong constitution!
That's exactly what the JC told me. I think it's just not a very emotional thing for me. I see it as a social experiment.
Watchtower I believe still holds that the creative days were 7000 years or so long.
Well, Watchtower has abandoned the 7,000 year thing. I say "abandoned" because formally acknowledging a shift in thinking would draw attention to yet another failed attempt at chronology. I could be mistaken and there may be something in print, but it must've been glossed over briefly at best.
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schnell
If you do a Google image search for Babylonian world view you can see what the "Cosmos" looked like to people at the time the bible was being written. The earth is a flat disk with a solid hemisphere of the Firmament above it. Above the firmament and below the earth are the waters of chaos.
Read any scripture that describes the world and you'll find that it fits perfectly into this picture.
The flood makes a whole lot more sense too.
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punkofnice
Welcome to theunbeliever.
I went through all kinds of stuff when I was waking up.
Just a heads up, I'm now happily atheistic agnosticy sort of thing.
all the Bible has stopped making sense to me now.
But.............you follow your own path...it's what we do.
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Giordano
Welcome theunbeliever.
My upbringing has, somewhat ironically, helped tremendously in my secular pursuits, as they revolve around art.
When my wife and I left in our early twenties we eventually became artists and sold our work throughout the USA.
Best decision we ever made was to leave the 'tooth' this was in the mid 1960's, it was a different religion back then but it's always been a stupid and reckless religion with the welfare of it's followers.
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theunbeliever
Thanks for that, Onager and Schnell. Seriously. I feel like it's pretty obvious now, but it's still mind-blowing to me. I never did understand "the waters beneath the expanse and above the expanse" before.
Punkofnice, I don't think I could ever be an atheist, as it is my humble opinion that it takes greater faith to be believe that which can not be disproved does not exist than to believe that which can not proved exists. However, I'm not a believer. I sincerely wish that I was, but no matter how hard I've tried I just can't believe. Religions and their sacred books fascinate me and I'll always be curious to explore different theologies. I respect your perspective, though.
Giordano, I'm almost done reading Crisis of Conscience and I have been close enough to Watch Tower's inner circle to know that the claims made are more likely to be true than not. I was not alive at that time and no one in my family was yet affiliated with Watch Tower so I had heretofore known only the version presented in the Proclaimers' book and similarly-skewed publications. I'd welcome any recollections or experiences of the organization in your day.
Thanks again for the warm welcome everyone. These are really the only meaningful interactions I've had since I was df'ed. Seeing as they are just comments on a website, that says a lot about how traumatizing this experience could be if I wasn't already a lone wolf. As a follow-up, I'm very curious to know about WT beliefs that are egregiously extra-biblical or in conflict with the Bible. I am not interested in discussing whether the Bible's authorship is divine. That's neither here nor there to me. I am interested only in how a religion claiming to be based on a book, subverts, goes beyond, or violates those writings.
For example, in Crisis of Conscience, Ray Franz writes, "What plain statement in Scripture could anyone, GB member or anyone else, point to and say, "Here, the Bible clearly says": [...] 5. That the 144,00 in Revelation must be taken as a literal number and that the "great crowd" does not and cannot refer to persons serving in God's heavenly courts? Where do we find those statements in the Bible?"
Should I start a separate thread for that? I'm very grateful for all your responses. :)
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Finkelstein
Welcome to the forum theunbeliever
I'm very curious to know about WT beliefs that are egregiously extra-biblical or in conflict with the Bible.
How about the actions of the WTS setting specific times or calculations concerning when Jesus took position upon his heavenly throne and the subsequent " This Generation " that the WTS professed all throughout the 20th century ?
Jesus strongly admonished his faithful followers to not set a time upon God's own sacred time.
Yet the WTS and its top executive editors of this publishing house set many times and made many doctrinal proclamations, showing unfaithful disloyalty to god through his written word. ???
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theunbeliever
Finkelstein, that's been such a revelation to me in the last few weeks. I'm currently in the process of acquiring the Gentile Times Reconsidered to study how 1914 was plagiarized. I was born and raised a JW and therefore never questioned the date. I at one point felt quite proud of myself for being among the few in the Spanish field that knew how to explain 1914. How ridiculous I must've sounded to my Bible students, like an absurd world problem on an inconsequential math quiz. It's a long story but I continue to attend meetings for reasons not unique to me though I'm a bit paranoid about giving too many identifiers away. Anyway at the CBS (maybe the "BS" doesn't stand for Bible Study after all) this week, progressively-revealed light was the theme. I almost walked out. It's so suddenly obvious how that idea makes WT unaccountable for any mistakes, as even those would've been God's will. It's maddening.
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Finkelstein
To be realized much of C T Russell's theological ideas were not originally his own this includes Pyramidology, Dispensationalism theories or Millennial Day Theories.
Take things slowly day at time and you'll see for yourself that the IBSA and the JWS faith/teachings is a practice of novice inaccurate bible interpretations that were nevertheless advantageous for a publishing house to propagate.
The remaining question appears which is, are the JWS really serving Jehovah or are they really serving the Watchtower Publishing House and its adherent needs and purpose ?