Firstly I appreciate the work Mark O’Donnell does for the XJW community. No doubt this has also been discussed numerous times before. But with regard to those documents that were illegally stolen in that vice documentary. I’m just curious why Wt didn’t peruse the matter further with regard to confidential property that had been taken from them. I’m sure if these were FBI files it would be a different matter. Just curious, comments please.
Why wasn’t O’Donnell charged with receiving stolen goods.
by joe134cd 24 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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John Redwood
This is a valid question. So here are the facts of the case.
As you know, I didn't steal any documents. As you posted, I "received" stolen documents. So- what happened?
First, I will say that the person who took the documents did so with non-malicious intent. He didn't take any physical Kingdom Hall property or vandalize the buildings. He targeted the documents that he felt should be exposed and in the hands of the police.
Local elders in those congregations contacted law enforcement immediately and reported the stolen documents. By that time, some of the documents had been redacted and published on the Faith Leaks / Truth and Transparency website.
The police accepted this explanation with no further concerns except for one thing- they wanted to know why the Jehovah's Witnesses were harboring documents about crimes in their community. -
Anony Mous
Not sure what you insinuate was stolen, I'm not familiar with O'Donnell
Letters and statements of facts (eg. finance records) don't have copyright associated with them in the way that a book or literary work does. Likewise if certain documents are filed in a lawsuit, these become public domain.
If someone makes a copy for example of a list of sex offenders, there is no copyright on it. Moreover, you cannot claim copyright or ownership over something you did in the commission of a crime, if you steal a car, it does not become yours, if you make a book about all the murder you committed, you cannot claim copyright if it is in fact a statement of facts.
If WTBTS claims copyright, then it admits that it has authored those documents, which is why they don't claim copyright on for example, the elder manual but they do on for example any other publication they have ever made. If you make a verbatim copy of, for example, their website, they have the right to sue, there are exceptions off course if you use excerpts for commentary, satire etc.
Unless someone physically stole a document (eg. an embossed and notarized document that has some value - such as the deed to the Kingdom Hall) AND unless he was aware the document he received was physically stolen, he did not 'receive stolen goods'.
Confidential property does not exist, there is real property and there is imaginary (intellectual) property, you cannot 'steal' a movie for example unless you go physically steal a DVD from the store or a reel from the movie studio and then it's not copyright infringement, just larceny or theft. Vice versa, you cannot steal a car by making a replica of it, at best, you committed an intellectual property violation.
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johnamos
I didn't steal any documents. As you posted, I "received" stolen documents.
He never said you stole them, he said you received them, just as you state yourself.
Why wasn’t O’Donnell charged with receiving stolen goods.
But with regard to those documents that were illegally stolen
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Jeffro
Anony Mous;Letters and statements of facts (eg. finance records) don't have copyright associated with them in the way that a book or literary work does. Likewise if certain documents are filed in a lawsuit, these become public domain.
It is true that basic information, for example a list of numbers, can’t be copyrighted, but the way facts are presented can still be subject to copyright. It is not the case that descriptions of facts can’t be copyrighted. Documents that become public record do not automatically fall into public domain, i.e., you can’t start selling copies of someone else’s copyrighted work just because the document was used in a court case.
If WTBTS claims copyright, then it admits that it has authored those documents, which is why they don't claim copyright on for example, the elder manual but they do on for example any other publication they have ever made.
This claim about the Watch Tower Society not claiming copyright over the ‘elder’s manual’ is entirely false. Where the entire book has been copied, they have had it removed from sites. However they would have no case where a snippet of the book is used along with commentary, which is fair use. Publication information is explicitly stated in the book.
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JW GoneBad
I believe this was the conversation that took place between the Palmer congregation elders where the child sexual abuse documents turned-up missing and WT Headquarters:
Palmer Congregation Elders: "Hello WT legal...we thought you might want to know that a ton of secret files...many containing cases of child sexual abuse that we've handled over the years are missing and we think they've been stolen. Should we press charges against the perpetrator?"
WT Legal Department: "How in the hell did that happen...didn't we give you instructions a while ago to destroy secret files and folders of that nature? No dammit...don't press charges...you might open-up a pandora's box & a can of worms of trouble for us here at Bethel! Sit tight...let's hope the police and the media don't find out!"
:) :) :)
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joe134cd
My point is Mark, would law enforcement have the same view if they were confidential FBI files. With all due respect, I think your trying to say, because no physical property was damaged or removed then this justify illegally entering someone’s premises.
For example I would be annoyed if somebody broke into my home, and took paper files, to give to the IRS, because I was avoiding tax. Clearly I would be in the wrong, and this person certainly had the communities best interest at heart by exposing me. But it still gives them no right to break into my home . It also gives them no right to further hand these on to a news agency to be published to the world.
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JW GoneBad
joe134cd...point well taken!
Lesson for everyone (based on your illustration) pay your damn taxes & you have less to fret about!
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John Redwood
This is a valid question. So here are the facts of the case.
As you know, I didn't steal any documents. As you posted, I "received" stolen documents. So- what happened?
First, I will say that the person who took the documents did so with non-malicious intent, as we know. He didn't take any physical Kingdom Hall property or vandalize the buildings. He targeted the documents that he felt should be exposed and in the hands of the police.
I think it was clear he wanted those documents not only turned over to the authorities, but also exposed in a way that would shed light on the JW "database" of documents related to child abuse.
By sending the documents to a whistleblower, he knew that 2 things would happen- the community would become aware of the documents, and that they would find their way into the hands of the police. Both of those things happened.
For reasons I won't go into here, the JW elders became aware of the missing documents, and suspected the person who took the documents, and promptly disfellowshipped him. He appealed this decision and the appeal was rejected by Jehovah's Witness headquarters in New York (CCJW).
Local elders in those congregations contacted law enforcement immediately and reported the stolen documents. By that time, some of the documents had been redacted and published on the Faith Leaks / Truth and Transparency website.
Law enforcement then contacted Truth and Transparency and questioned them about the stolen documents. Thier response to the police was to say "We don't know who took the documents, and even if we did we are under no obligation to report our sources."
The police accepted this explanation with no further concerns except for one thing- they wanted to know why the Jehovah's Witnesses were harboring documents about crimes in their community.
Later, after I had been able to make contact with some of the individuals mentioned in the documents, and around the time of the publication of the Atlantic article, I was able to contact police in Maine where many of the alleged crimes had occurred, and I turned over all documents related to those cases.
I worked with Law enforcement at length to ensure they understood these documents and all of the terminology and references in those documents. For example- there were extensive references to elders manuals, BOE letters, Watchtower articles and so forth.
After working with the police for quite some time, they were satisfied that they had sufficient cause to launch a criminal investigation, and that's what they did. The criminal investigation has been ongoing for nearly 2 years, and has finally resulted in a complete investigation. The process was stalled and delayed because of Covid, partly because there were an extensive number of interviews to conduct in multiple states, with multiple victims and alleged abusers.
I can now confirm that the case has been turned over to the District Attorney- and it is in their capable hands. Unfortunately they are backed up about a year because of Covid, so it may be some time before we see any charges filed, if they decide to formally file charges.
I feel very confident and comfortable in what has taken place. I went to the police, and there was never a question about why I had received these documents, and never a question about why someone removed them from congregations in Massachusetts and elsewhere. They were concerned with the crimes contained within the elders' notes, which was the priority.
While I do not advocate people breaking into Kingdom Halls, I will say that when people do such things for noble reasons, law enforcement understands that these are special circumstances that warrant special consideration.
I am forever grateful to "Judas and Jezebel" for their bravery in taking those documents and getting them to the right person. Not only do the police have the documents, but we have these documents to prove the extent of child abuse and child abuse records that are kept both in congregations and inside of Watchtower's headquarters.
[re-posted my reply since the original reply was missing a large amount of what I had posted] -
pistolpete
there was never a question about why I had received these documents, and never a question about why someone removed them from congregations in Massachusetts and elsewhere.
They were concerned with the crimes contained within the elders' notes, which was the priority.
That's what Law and Justice is all about.
It's not about whether the documents were taken illegally or not. That's something a defense attorney would try to use, so as to try to get the "Guilty" free of charge.
Heinous crimes have been committed and the WT has covered up hundreds of crimes where adults Fuc*ed little children. Let that language sink in for a while.
A lot of those in leadership positions should go to prison for covering up such crimes.And the world should know that this organization has covered such crimes for decades.
This would push thousands if not millions of JWs to finally wake up.