***the mole**** I had a discussion with a friend about some things the org covered up. starting with a calm subject about her and her husband being tricked with a fraudulent scheme for buying discount gas and that several witness were duped and lost alot a money. i advised that the da's office found it difficult to prosecute because witness' believe not suing each other. i explained that it was on local tv and that she should get her money back also. her response is that people are greedy that's why class actions suits are started. i asked then why did you buy into that scheme? i then told her in sacramento that the following week a local tv provided info on molestation and that several halls are being sued. her answer was that satan was against the org and that evil people want to shame god's name. i brought several issues up and our conversation ended bitterly. she yelled and scream defending every action of the org and told me they were being lead by jehovah. i advised that the org is far from perfection. before she hung up i asked if the word of christ was perfect, then why do we need new light every so often? i told her that it is christ to mediate between man and god not an org then she hung up on me......for those who are still members and past members only, what is your opinion? i see a box they have inclosed themselves in and im glad that im not in it...so what are your thoughts....***the mole***
my regret getting baptised/ your opinion from former jw's
by the mole 10 Replies latest jw experiences
-
-
Prisca
My opinion is that I don't think she will be your friend anymore.
I have several family members who are like her. They refuse any evidence or even the thought that things in the Society could be amiss. Trying to reason with them is impossible - you're preaching to a brick wall.
At least you got a few things in before she hung up that may stay in her mind. Remember that with some dubs (like me) it's not one big thing that brings them out, but a combination of things - lack of love in the cong, comments that others say etc. It takes time for everything to mull in the brain and then one day, it occurs to you that the "troof" isn't the truth at all.
-
BluesBrother
Typical I am afraid. I have had many such conversations with family members, they start ok but get very angry when they have no other reply to ones arguments except name calling.
Prisca said it. You have to have the courage to admit that the "Truth" is not.. so that means that everything one has believed has been in vain, their source of comfort is gone, so it is much easier to call us names and say that we are mad and evil and being used by Satan
-
shotgun
Sad isn't it mole..
She said satan is trying to shame Jah name by having the molested people sue the congregations.....How could she not see the shame was when the molestations took place and were then covered up....how could that bring any glory to Gods name?
Don't you feel like knocking on their heads and saying ''Hello Mcfly'' anyone home in there?
-
CruithneLaLuna
Hey Mole, are you one of my neighbros? (Misspelt on accident, left that way on deliberation). I am in the Sac area, moving toward the central city in about a week.
Cruithne/Enhtiurc
-
CruithneLaLuna
Yes, someone (who seemed fairly intelligent, overall) actually expressed that thought to me. When I was an active Witness, I NEVER thought the org was perfect - whereas I did believe it was led by Jehovah and Jesus, and that athough they allowed bad things to happen, they kept the org as a whole on course and cleaned up problem areas in time. I always saw it as a bunch of imperfect people - at every level - doing, for the most part and on the whole, the best they could. And it was only Jehovah's blessing that enabled it to work as well as it did. Whenever I had discussions with other Witnesses about this subject area, I would (needless to say) be careful how I phrased things, trying to keep the conversation encouraging and upbuilding. If the other person had a strong need to believe that the org was right no matter what, I wouldn't press my more pragmatic views. I'd simply say that that wasn't the way I understood things, I wasn't trying to change their viewpoint, and that what was important was faithfulness to Jehovah....
The interesting question is, given that I was so tolerant of individual and even organizational imperfection, flaws, and shortcomings, and stayed "faithful" as a JW for over 30 years, why did I eventually turn my back on it, walk away, and even end up on a spiritual path that is in many ways "at the opposite end of the spectrum" from the JWs. I looked back on what 30 years as a JW had done for me, and finally admitted that my attachment to the religion had basically "ruined my life." I.e. by faith I had caused myself a lot of needless suffering, and denied myself many harmless benefits and pleasures; also, my desire to contribute to society and humanity had been subverted into a worse-than-useless channel (helping the org expand its control). My search for happiness and fulfillment as a Jehovah's Witness had led me to deep-seated, unremitting frustration and anger (at just about everyone and everything), misery, depression, and a great many foolish, worthless, and self-destructive actions.
By going against counsel and getting a bachelor's degree, I was enabled to support a family and accumulate some assets; subsequently, by trying to follow the org's guideance very closely and be the best JW I could be (at the expense of more mundane considerations), I ended up losing all of my assets and being unable to support myself or my family in a 'reasonable or decent lifestyle.' It is fair to ask whether I followed counsel in a balanced way, and all I can offer in response is that in my experience the org gives lip service to balance and taking care of mundane matters, making sure that we can support ourselves and our families, even counseling us to provide for our own retirement and old age - and yet in practice, attempting to apply all of the counsel offered militates against all of that; in the final analysis, they want people to give as much as possibe to the org, and if that causes personal financial disaster, then all of the blame for that falls on the individual. "It happened because I did my best to do everything you told me to do" is not something they want to hear, and if one expresses that observation of FACT, one is automatically found to be in the wrong and cut off from any superficial and ultimately useless expressions sympathy that might otherwise be offered.
Yes, I had been spared the troubles that often befall people as a consequence of abusing alcohol, drugs, and sex, and obviously do not regret being free from cirrhosis of the liver, dementia, AIDS, etc. ... but we must admit that the majority of non-Witnesses don't fall victim to those things, and one does not have to embrace JW dogma in order to have and exercise common sense in taking care of ourself and avoiding foolish risks. As I put it at the time of my decision to leave the org, "Any counsel I have received from the WTS that was truly worthwhile, I could have gotten from any number of other sources, or figured out for myself."
I didn't intend to get into a long story about my own experiences.
Cruithne/Enhtiurc
-
the mole
***the mole***thanks everyone for your opinion. just to let you know i didnt accuse her of anything and the org. i simply started off asking why. she began to defend quickly. she did point out that she spoke to her c.o last month about the molestation charges on NBC and kcra channel 3 here in sacramento here had local speaking about molestion here in town that was covered up. she got very upset. i brought up the issue of the u.n scandal and she said it was big lie... i slipped though. i told her i didnt think the org was the true org to lead mankind to perfection that is when she snapped. in her defence she kept on saying the 7 congregations in the bible was the first org and that jw org was the second chosen by christ. that is when i went about charles russel being accused of molestation and went on about more scandels i listed above....i really think i wont here from here again i feel that my secret identity will be revealed..my gut feeling is that she will now tell everyone i questioned the org status on mankind and have me lable from here on out as the apostate in my family. she knows all my family in sacramento and know how devout they are....what a pickle for i got my self in for asking simple questions...the mole
-
the mole
did everyone run out of opinions? i have an update for all of you. my friend called me back and told me she wanted to know were i stood with jehovah...i told her i believe in god and christ but i had questions on the org giving correct info...this is what she said, " if you doubt the organization and reject it you reject jehovah. if that is how you feel we cant be friends any longer." ....now did my questions every doubt god? did they doubt christ? did i every say i doubted our friendship? no i did not........can someone explain this from there own opinion of our conversation..i want to hear from others
-
run dont walk
well, hopefully you got her thinking, but it is sad, some just never see it for what it is and live in their little fantasy world.
Like this is 2003, how can people STILL be so stupid ! , but then again we all were at one time, weren't we.
-
Winston Smith :>D
mole,
First off, I’m still ‘in’ purely for my wife’s sake; going to all of the meetings, but no FS or commenting. So I have some insight from the congregational side.
Opinions & diagnosis?
Tell you what. After I read your first post in this thread, I thought you took it too far. Ask a Q or at best maybe two that puts a doubt in a Dub’s mind about the authority of the WTS.
When you said this:
i told her that it is christ to mediate between man and god not an org then she hung up on me mole
then the line was definitely crossed.
Please keep in mind, The WTS = Jehovah God.
You even bring up the simplest question RE the WTS’ authority, you have just questioned Jehovah. In fact, you don’t love Jehovah anymore. You despise everything that Jehovah has given you and have no regard on how Jehovah has protected you from the evil world while in the WTS fold.
i slipped though. i told her i didnt think the org was the true org to lead mankind to perfection that is when she snapped. mole
my friend called me back and told me she wanted to know were i stood with jehovah...i told her i believe in god and christ but i had questions on the org giving correct info mole
WAY TOO FAR!!!
Even the most brain dead JW will catch this on their ‘apostate radar’.
mole, if you are at all interested staying underground and keeping your identity a secret, you better do three things:
- back-peddle
- deny
- lie
Repeat steps 1 - 3 as needed.
Don’t’ get me wrong; you brought up some great points. But if keeping your name in ‘good standing’ with the congregation and borganization is important to you, then you gotta start kissing some major ass ASAP. It’s time to go into ‘full spin control’ and ‘damage control mode’ ASAP.
If you are at all interested in doing some damage control, I would advise the following:
- Call your friend up and apologize.
- Ask her for her understanding and any suggestions that she may have [let her feel that she has helped you]
- Say you are going through a tough time now [make up any story you see fit or cite a current tough issue you are facing now]
- Lie and say you didn’t mean what you said and that the WTS has all of the answers and is the only true religion.
If anyone calls [elders, etc] deny, spin; say your words were taken out of context.
Use the WTS’ own ‘two witness rule’ and deny anything that was claimed to have been said that was damaging coming from your mouth. If an elder wants to get together with you, GLADLY accept their help and meet with them. Get ready to bite your tongue for an hour or two, do a lot of ‘yes’ head nodding, and thank them for getting to the bottom of any possible slander in the congregation. If they give you ‘homework’ to look up [articles to read from the WT], scan it over and then at the next meeting tell them you did your homework and cite a sentence or two.
Of course if you are not interested in saving your ‘good standing’ in the borganization, then I guess you must have subconsciously wanted to be flushed out from the underground and showed your hand to this ‘sister’.
Hey, at least you had the chance to plant doubts in one JW’s mind before you were flushed out!
Best of luck,
Winston.