God was like "I'll give you free will and some time, but I'll need to lobotomize you first. Multi-millennia life spans? Sorry free will blessed humans, that's for Satan, my favorite humanophile to enjoy."
I have a question.
by DATA-DOG 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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OUTLAW
But DD ain't running things, Jehovah is.....Fisherman
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DATA-DOG
One more question.
If you woke up tomorrow with "God" powers, what would you do? Would you wait to save everyone? Seriously, what would you wait for? Is proving a point through inaction that causes unimaginable suffering, more effective than proving your point through tangible actions that actually solve the problems of humanity? Do you crave drama, so that you need to swoop in and save the day? Just do it already, without the glory seeking. Wouldn't "Satan" look like a fool if "God" showed up tomorrow and forgot about his wounded ego?
When you factor in the belief that God will undo all the harm, it doesn't make more sense to allow suffering, it's even more ludicrous for God to wait. Suffering is truly pointless if God can undo it. At least "pagan" religions provide a reason for suffering. Not so with Xianity.
To make matters worse, "the former things will not be brought to mind." So what lesson will mankind retain through eternity from all this suffering that God allows? Imagine a bunch of homogenous worshippers, living with zero challenges. They never think about their past suffering, therefore, any lesson that suffering taught is now gone. So what was the point?
If a human "sins" in paradise, they cease to exist, per JWism. What did that person do, or think, that was so bad? What "sin" did they commit? Will you ever know the reason? Wouldn't that knowledge upset you, and cause suffering that would require another divine lobotomy? How will you advance without suffering and challenge? Will God beam the information into your brain? If so, he should have destroyed "Satan" the very instant he rebelled, then that information could have been beamed into the brains of humans. Hell, God could have encoded that knowledge into our DNA! There would be no need for debate, we would all just KNOW...
Will your eternal life be filled with such meaningless occurrences that teach nothing, except that God will kill you for disobedience? "God doesn't want to rule by force.", chants the apologist. Yet that is precisely what he would be doing in "paradise", if JWism is correct. Again, if you rule by force in the future, why the needless exercise in allowing suffering that supposedly proves that you don't want to rule by force?
Is Galactic street-cred so important that humanity needs to suffer further, perhaps for just a couple thousand more years? The WTBTS explanation of God's right to rule and of suffering is laughable, and insulting to the intellect and morals of decent human beings.
DD
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slimboyfat
I have read Bart Ehrman's book God's Problem. He shows that different Bible writers gave different explanations for and all powerful God and suffering in the world.
What he doesn't really do, because it contradicts the way we think in the modern world I suppose, is explore the idea that God is simply incomprehensible to humans and that we cannot answer the question to our own satisfaction. For example we can readily accept the idea that a pet cat doesn't understand the concept of going on a diet in order to lose weight. But the idea that there should be something about how the world works that God knows but we cannot know seems to be the ultimate heresy in the current epoch. This is because materialists have exalted the human brain as the ultimate arbiter of truth in the universe. The idea that there is some problem or some mystery which the human mind is not capable of solving is out of the question. Even to the extent that people who suggest otherwise and that God may know better must be morally deficient somehow.
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cofty
Your "mystery" argument does not work with the god revealed by Jesus of the gospels. You have to reconcile drowning a quarter of a million men, women and children with "love" as defined by Jesus.
Events such as the Asian tsunami are incompatible with other things that christians claim to know about god. All attempts to explain god's actions result in a story that is internally contradictory.
Jesus claimed to have been sent to reveal the nature of his god and father. Not only does christianity claim that god is love, it defines the meaning of love, and explains the importance of love expressed as positive action in the interests of others.
I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous... Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. - Matt.5
Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Matt.6
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. - Luke 6
Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. - Luke 12
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. - Jas.1
"Love ... always protects" - 1 Cor.13
The god of Jesus is also a god who is active in the world. Millions of christians demonstrate their belief in an immanent god every day. When they thank god for their food or pray for protection for a loved one or for a new job or help with any one of a million concerns they confirm that they worship a god who acts in the real world.
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slimboyfat
You have to reconcile
No we don't. That is the point. The Bible seems to say both that God is good and that we cannot understand God and his ways and thoughts. So we cannot "reconcile". The fact that we cannot reconcile the two does not contradict what the Bible says, it agrees with it.
Leolaia expalined why Job should be read in an anti-humanist way when I suggested an alternative reading that portrays God as frail.
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GoneAwol
Fisherman: "don't tell God what you like He should do. He knows."
God knows everything? You sure? Yet he couldnt find Adam and Eve after they sinned? For someone who has everything under control as part of his `universal sovereignty plan` you would have thought he could find a naked guy under a tree..... Wake up!! The bible was written by PEOPLE!!!!!!
Gen 3:8 That evening they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden; and they hid themselves among the trees. 9 The Lord God called to Adam, “Why are you hiding?”[a]
10 And Adam replied, “I heard you coming and didn’t want you to see me naked. So I hid.” -
sir82
As the Grand Purposer, he purposes that his Holy Spirit would shield baby Jesus from sin.
I've never seen this point made in JW literature. Maybe I just missed it - where do you see it?
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snare&racket
When and why would an all powerful being create a 'holy spirit'....? It doesn't make sense!
Of course it makes sense if you are a human making up the story. Humans can't achieve anything spectacular or beyond natural without assistance, usually in fiction, humans require magic or 'the force'. When ascribing gods miracle acts the writers gave him a magic force, the holy spirit, just as all human writers still do to this day when writing fiction about superheroes or Jedi. Of course, the oversight is that according to the story God was a god already, he would even have to make the Holy Spirit himself, which makes no sense.... Why would he need a third party to come visit an elders meeting when appointmenwt are being made, it's silly, but it makes perfect sense when you think humans invented it.
How did god hold back the waters for the Israelites? ......oh well he used magic/the force/ the Holy Spirit! ......... Doesn't make sense!
