by Drearyweather 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Considering that freedom of association is recognize as a basic human right, religions should not enforce rules that would deny or limit that right.
Again, freedom of association means the government can't prevent you from associating with who you want. It does NOT mean that the government can or should force people to associate with you.
Simon: It's easy to show that it isn't a policy - people may have the fear of it, but there is no clear rule that people will be disfellowshipped. […] [Concerning nonrelatives] Except it isn't clear. Like most rules, it's really voluntary and doesn't require much more than a polite "sod off" if questioned about it to end the matter.
There ARE policies. See these quotes:
Though this is not an exhaustive list, brazen conduct may be involved in the following if the wrongdoer has an insolent, contemptuous attitude made evident by a practice of these things: ˙ Willful, continued, unnecessary association with disfellowshipped nonrelatives despite repeated counsel.—Matt. 18:17b; 1 Cor. 5:11, 13; 2 John 10, 11; w81 9/15 pp. 25-26. (Shepard the Flock of God, Page 60)
And Concerning JWs who continue to associate with x-jws:
He would not be dealt with judicially unless there is persistent spiritual association or he openly criticizes the disfellowshipping decision. (Shepard the Flock of God, Page 116)
Simon: It does NOT mean that the government can or should force people to associate with you
This is absolute none sense. This isn't about forcing people to associate. This is about religion forcing people NOT to associate with certain people by taking disciplinary actions against them. You might want to read my comment again. And note that based on my quotes from the procedural rule book of the elders, there are, indeed, specific policies on this manner, showing that this is NOT a personal decision.
It is because of these policies and these policies alone that the watchtower is being abusive and is subject to a law suit. All we need to do is demonstrate that they did apply such rules. However, the threat is so great that most people never go to the end of it. They get a visit from elders who threaten them with disfellowshipping and submit by fear of the consequence.
This is absolute none sense. This isn't about forcing people to associate. This is about religion forcing people NOT to associate with certain people by taking disciplinary actions against them.
To do what? To force them to associate ... so yes, the government forcing association on people. If you think the little guy comes out on top in such an arrangement, think again. The only way government enforced association combines with religion is Islam and if you think that improves your rights you really need to study harder.
You might want to read my comment again. And note that based on my quotes from the procedural rule book of the elders, there are, indeed, specific policies on this manner, showing that this is NOT a personal decision.
It's mostly voluntary. First response is "we don't talk about anything spiritual and it's none of your business anyway" and usually that is the end of it.
They get a visit from elders who threaten them with disfellowshipping and submit by fear of the consequence.
Yes, they voluntarily submit instead of standing their ground. That is a choice they make but it doesn't mean those elders are forcing someone to do something. Especially not to the point that you want to go to court and get someone to come and force the people involved to allow them to associate.
And if that isn't the outcome you want, then you have to explain what you imagine happens and what you want to happen if you want to label things "a crime".
I enjoy these kind of think tanks. Everybody playing all nice and stuff, and so far very few ruffled feathers.
So what type of human right violation in your country could work against a totalitarian mind control cult that masquerades as a religion,, who's primary weapon is "Disfellowshipping" members to keep them under control/ unified thoughts full of religious delusional bullshit, with the main directive: to Listen Obey and be Blessed/cursed a blatant in your face corporate theme song if ever there was one. I do think the Watchtower printing establishment day are number for hiding behind being a religion are numbered as the laws improve.
I really do think we will see the legal system eradicating these old cults one building sale after another to pay off all the laws they violate because they are so in denial of their own flaws and fuck up in more ways than you can imagine.
To do what? To force them to associate ... so yes, the government forcing association on people.
Perhaps an example will clear things out: Lets say that shunning is not enforced by the church but is still a teaching. James and John are friends. James is ex-communicated. John shuns James according to his beliefs. There is nothing wrong in this scenario. No one can force John to keep associating with James.
The problem I see is when shunning is enforced: John keeps talking with James. As he ignores the elder's counsels, he is disfellowshiped as well. He then suffers shunning from his family and friends who are afraid to suffer the same consequences as John and James. The problem here is that the church is intimidating its members in order to limit their freedom of association.
Yes, they voluntarily submit instead of standing their ground.
This is victim blaming. They are threatened. The fact that a great deal of them are too afraid to hold their grounds does not make them responsible for punishment inflicted by their church.
john.prestor: I don't agree with the court in the Anderson case, Jehovah's Witnesses don't tell you that they're going to shun you until you're already an unbaptized publisher, that's when they give you the Organized book, and the Organized book explains that they shun people.
John.prestor,
The OD book is given before you are announced as an unbaptized publisher. Once you speak to the elders that you want to become an Unbaptized publisher, they discuss this with you and if you are qualified, they hand over the book to you. You then need to go to FS for a month, submit your report and you are announced as a publisher.
Even if he says that he didn't get time to go through the book, the court will dismiss it. The shunning teaching is splattered through and through the literature of JW's, which even Non-JW's have access to. In the information age today, it is ironic that JW's are known for their shunning and we still have people who claim that they didn't know about shunning even after attending their meetings twice a week for 6 months or more.
Eventually, it is the individual who needs to take an effort to know all the rules before signing up. For minor children who get baptized, it is the parents who take the blame of indoctrination. They are the ones who take their children to the baptism pool, not the WT.
Also even if you can claim a minor being baptized when they do become the age of majority and still go to meetings they have confirmed it.
Shunning is not limited to JW's and for many Americans, it is not that controversial as it seems.
Only cults MANDATE shunning of exmembers.
2. JW Shunning is not a dark secret policy. In the Anderson case, the court stated that people who become JW's voluntarily subject themselves to the shunning policy. Hence it is difficult to argue that you were unaware of the policy while getting baptized.
Not true. I was assured only spiritual association was prohibited with family.
3 Many of us were grateful we had that choice
utter crap. Most people detest it and in fact I didn’t shun anyone.
6 A government......will one day force EX jw to attend JCs
even more BS.....we are talking about organisations mandating shunning of family. If an individual randomly decides to shun because they want to no one is interested in stopping that.
