Oi Cofty

by Landy 30 Replies latest social current

• 

  slimboyfat

  The truth is we don't know exactly how another future would have turned out, if Scotland had chosen independence in 2014. Some say bankrupt, some say socialist utopia. One of the campaign issues is a bit clearer now however. Unionists said we needed to vote No to save EU membership. We know how that turned out.

  What I can't understand from unionists is two things. First of all why impugn the motives of those you disagree with? Why can't supporters of independence simply be what they appear to be: those who happen think the best people to make choices about the government of Scotland are the people who live in Scotland? Why all this nonsense about ambition, braveheart and anti-English nonsense? The campaign was about the NHS, the EU, pro-immigration, proper use of oil and renewable resources, choosing own government, getting rid of Trident and so on.

  Second thing is the utter conviction unionists seem to have that Scotland governing itself could be nothing other than an unmitigated disaster. What is it about Scotland or the people who live in Scotland that makes you so convinced they could not successfully govern themsleves? Denmark, Switzerland, Norway, Ireland, Luxembourg - all very successful small countries. But Scotland we are told would be a disaster. Why of all nations are we uniquely incapable?
• 

  notsurewheretogo

  What I can't understand from unionists is two things. First of all why impugn the motives of those you disagree with? Why can't supporters of independence simply be what they appear to be: those who happen think the best people to make choices about the government of Scotland are the people who live in Scotland? Why all this nonsense about ambition, braveheart and anti-English nonsense? The campaign was about the NHS, the EU, pro-immigration, proper use of oil and renewable resources, choosing own government, getting rid of Trident and so on.
  Second thing is the utter conviction unionists seem to have that Scotland governing itself could be nothing other than an unmitigated disaster. What is it about Scotland or the people who live in Scotland that makes you so convinced they could not successfully govern themsleves? Denmark, Switzerland, Norway, Ireland, Luxembourg - all very successful small countries. But Scotland we are told would be a disaster. Why of all nations are we uniquely incapable?

  1) But you are labelling me/others a unionist...I'm not...I would love an independent Scotland...just has to be done right...the SNP have fudged figures and facts to support their cause...the real facts show the real picture. Not everyone who voted no wants Scotland to remain the UK, many of us did so because a SNP ruled Scotland is a disaster. If another party actually published a manifesto that worked I would vote yes.

  2) Economics...pure and simple...we spend too much and don't earn enough...if we went independent then austerity measures the likes that would put Greece to shame would have to be implemented...ironic given that Sturgeon lashed out at Cameron over his austerity measures.
• 

  slimboyfat

  Well I support SNP as a means to an end. When Scotland is independent it will vote for its own government. Presumably initially some kind of centre-left coalition, in line with majority politiical opinion in Scotland. I don't think SNP will last long in independent Scotland. Not everyone's view, but parties would realign to new situation.

  It is the UK government that spent oil revenue without saving any. It is the UK government that took us into illegal and expensive wars, costing many lives as well as billions of pounds. It is the UK government that presided over a bank system at the centre of the global crash. It is the UK government that is dismantling the welfare system and bunggled its way out of the EU.

  It would challenging for any new Scotland to equal that level of failure. Scotland's current financial poisition is a result of being part of the UK and subject to these and other failed policies. What would Scotland look like if we had 1) set up an oil fund like Norway 2) avoided illegal wars and paying for weapons of mass destruction 3) control over our own regulation and spending priorities? We can't change the mistakes of the past, but we can learn from them. If you are correct that Scotland's financial position is parlous, then it seems beyond weird to use this as an argument for staying in the current arrangement that got into that position in the first place. If we want to improve the situation the answer is to grow up and take responsibility for governing ourselves.
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  slimboyfat

  Plus to point out what should be obvious in Scotland, the SNP are not the only party or group for indepdence. There are the Greens, Scottish Socialists, Rise and other left groups, as well as Labour for Indepdence, and even a few Tory supporters.

  In fact when it comes to another referendum the SNP don't have enough votes in parliament to make it happen. It will only pass if the Greens support it as well. Which no doubt they will.

  I find it amusing how the BBC and other media have somehow convinced people elsewhere in the UK that Sturgeon is somehow afraid of independence or she doesn't really mean it. That's the power of propaganda I suppose. They have succeeded in making some people believe that Scotland governing itself is such a ridiculous idea that even those who are in favour of it don't really mean what they say. Amazing.
• 

  notsurewheretogo

  But how do you reconcile the fact we simply cannot afford to go it alone without massive cuts to public spending and raising of taxes at least 5 times what we have now?

  I'm all for some of what you say, the ideas are great in parts but the math means, at present, we cannot do it.

  You mention how can we improve things if we don't take action, or might it be better if we go alone..."might", "chance", "risk"....I'm not a betting man, I'm not gambling my country, my people and my childrens future on a gamble, a bet, a chance it may be better...especially when the facts suggest we would be in a hellish position financially.

  Scotland, and the UK, have done tremendously well in the last five years or so under the torries/lib dems and now the torries fully...its not perfect or ideal but much of what they have done has seen the UK prosper in real hard times, I'm not convinced anyone could have done better.

  The SNP won the majority of their seats in Scotland in the last GE...they will fail to do anything of any real means in Scotland and in the the next GE they will lose their seats again...it occurs in politics all the time....in times of hardship the more nationalistic parties become more popular...fail...then it swings back again.
• 

  slimboyfat

  You say we are so poor we cannot afford to be independent, but that we are doing "tremendously well" under Tories. Which is it?

  As I understand it the facts are the Scotland has contributed far more to the UK treasury as a percentage than it has got back for most of the last 40 years, largely because of oil revenue. It is true this has reversed slightly in the last couple of years because of lower oil revenue. That's the current position. Scotland needs to adapt to a post-oil economy whether we are independent or not. We need to develop our strengths and the best way to do that is to make the right choices for our own economy. Not allow others to make mistakes on our behalf.

  If the unionists' plan is simply for Scotland to rely on money from the rest of the UK I don't think that's a plan the rest of the UK will welcome. And neither would it be good for Scotland. We have a lot going for us including untapped oil and gas, renewable energy, tourism, fishing, niche food and drink exports, world class universities, creative industries and so on. Norway is rich because it used its oil wealth wisely. Unfortunately our North Sea oil revenue was not wisely used. But it's not the only way to create a successful small country. Look at Denmark without oil.

  Again the issue comes down to this. Those who say an independent Scotland would be a disaster need to explain what they think is so uniquely inadequate about Scotland or Scottish people that they can't be trusted to govern themselves.
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  notsurewheretogo

  You say we are so poor we cannot afford to be independent, but that we are doing "tremendously well" under Tories. Which is it?

  
  

  Jeepers SBF...because of the Barnett formula...we are subsidised by the rest of the UK, without it we simply cannot afford the public spending at present. What we contribute to the rest of the UK is far less than what we receive.

  
  

  Those who say an independent Scotland would be a disaster need to explain what they think is so uniquely inadequate about Scotland or Scottish people that they can't be trusted to govern themselves.

  
  

  Easy...it is not a case of "think"...the facts are there...financially it would ruin us if we went independent...its not complicated...its simple math. We may both agree we want to be independent and all that comes with it but that fact is we cannot without massive reform...and I'm not willing to "gamble" that until it is all laid out just how it will work.

  And we don't need to explain anything, the separatists need to explain why it would be better and how it would work as we don't want anything to change unless it will work...we are not the ones pushing for change...the SNP are and thus the onus lies with you/them to explain how it will work being independent.

  I've not read anywhere by any SNP manifesto, by any SNP politician or supporter just how it will work that is credible and not full of lies, half-truths or plain wrong facts.

  This why we say it must be the braveheart factor that sways lots of SNP supporters because there is a huge lack on info out there that shows how it would work if we were independent, how can anyone make a decision with a lack of info. That is why the 2014 indyref failed.
  
  
• 

  slimboyfat

  A few observations about that:

  1. If the UK is such a great thing for Scotland how come we've ended up in that position?

  2. And if being in the UK got us into that situation, how is remaining part of the UK ever going to improve things?

  3. What is the unionist plan to fix the situation? Beg money from the rest of the UK forever? Do you think the rest of the UK would stand for that? Would it even be desirable from a Scottish standpoint?

  Apart from all of which you seem to have swallowed unionist propaganda about Scotland having a huge deficit. The truth is most countries have deficits (not Norway because they controlled their own oil revenue). And for most of the last 40 years Scotland has had a smaller deficit than the rest of the UK and been a net contributor to the UK. In fact 2012/13 was the first year in decades when Scotland's deficit was larger than the UK and it was only slightly larger. Even the BBC report this truthfully on occasion. See the graph half way down this page.

  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28879267

  Whether Scotland prospers in the future depends on whether we can make the right choices about our future here in Scotland. Relying on handouts is not a good plan, sells ourselves short and doesn't show respect for rest of the UK.
• 

  notsurewheretogo

  All countries have a deficit...ours is huge though...worse than Greece's...it requires massive reform to be independent...it wont happen under the SNP because they have no clue...thus the logical conclusion is to stand united as part of the UK.

  Points 1 and 2 are easily answered...if it wasn't for the rest of the UK we would be in a worse position a long time ago...it is because of the rest of the UK that we are still standing. We will improve as the UK as a whole improves.

  You don't seem to answer the point as to how we go independent purely from a financial view given our deficit?

  Because if someone ever does with credible facts you will find many who voted no would vote yes, myself included. But there are simply a lack of facts...your points are all ifs and buts...how can we improve as part of the UK etc...all fluffy questions that do not tackle the actual issue that people like myself want answered.

  And the answer is not there, SNP want me to "gamble"...it aint happening...I'll vote NO to SNP for as long as it takes to protect my beloved Scotland until the point where the SNP, or any other party, outlines a credible manifesto as to how it would all work.

  PS. I think we have hijacked this thread! Lol
• 

  slimboyfat

  What makes you say Scotland would have been worse off independent? In the 1970s the UK government commissioned a report that concluded Scotland would be a very wealthy independent country. The report was kept secret. In the meantime Norway did become a very wealthy country, while UK revenue from the North Sea was used to fund 1980s privatisation and tax cuts, and none put aside for the future. The UK also spent a fortune on wars and weapons of mass destruction. How has any of that improved Scotland's position? Scotland has been a net contributor to the UK for most of the last 40 years. Only in the last couple of years has this reversed slightly. The Independent - hardly an snp paper.

  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/how-black-gold-was-hijacked-north-sea-oil-and-the-betrayal-of-scotland-518697.html

  Given that history how on earth can you say Scotland has been better off in the UK?

  The table at the bottom of this page shows that Scotland raised slightly less revenue per person than the rest of the UK for the last two years, compared with years when revenue from Scotland was much higher than the rest of the UK.

  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37167975
  

  There is no doubt that the last two years have been tough for Scotland because of the low price of oil. But that's within the context of years and decades of net contribution to the UK. And if Scotland was independent it could have put money aside as Norway did. If Scotland is independent in the future it can make better decisions about its economy than the UK has made.

  It's as if unionists think staying in the UK actually constitutes an economic plan. Scotland needs to adapt whether it is independent or not. The Barnett formula won't last forever whether we are independent or not. Or is it really the plan to rely on subsidy from now on indefinitely? Good luck with that economic plan.