What does the Trinity doctrine teach?

by hooberus 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  rocketman

  For me, it's still like the electoral college and the designated hitter - made sense to someone, but it wasn't me.

  Great one, Phatom Stranger! Love the analogy!

  PS - I'm glad football finally got rid of the "In the Grasp" rule.
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  rocketman

  Lately I've been reading some Trintarian angles on the Bible, like The Kingdom Of The Cults and The Four Major Cults, each which dedicate ample print to trying to tear down non-Trinitarian doctrine like that of the jws. I am still not convinced however, simply because, when I read the Bible, I get no sense of a Trinity, with perhaps the exception of a few verses.

  Sometimes I also wonder this: if there are 'proof texts' for both teachings, then doesn't the Bible in effect prove to be contradictory? I notice how each side always strives to 'reconcile' texts that prove troubling to their side of the argument*. It'd perhaps be easier (more accurate, I'm not sure) to simple conclude that contradiction exists.

  *Example - John 20:28, where Thomas says "My Lord and My God" to Jesus. The jw argument on this verse is not very convincing to me.

  And there are several verses which seem to show strongly that Jesus is not God, and some of those are not convincingly argued away by Trinitarians.
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  Phantom Stranger

  TY, rocketman.
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  hooberus

  link said: Can you explain why it is so important to believe this Athanasian Creed, or any other man made doctrine for that matter, in order to obtain salvation?

  My main reason for posting the Athanasian creed here is to give an authoritative explanation of the doctrine of the Trinity. I don't think that a person has to be able to quote the Athanasian creed for salvation, however one does need to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ in order to be saved. One componet of the gospel is the deity (having the nature of God and thus being God) of Jesus Christ.

  "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;" Mark 1:1

  "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." John 20:31

  "Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name." Acts 9:13-14
  
  "And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God." Acts 9:19-20
  

  "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house." Acts 16:30-34

  "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16

  "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:" Romans 1:1-4

  "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:9-13

  "For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea." 2 1:19
  

  "For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake." 2 Corinthians 4:5

  From the above it is clear, that the apostle Paul preached that Jesus Christ was the "Son of God" and the "Lord" to whose name was to be called upon for salvation. These are both titles of deity. The "Lord" who was to be called upon (as in calling upon the name of Jehovah) was clearly the Lord Jesus. The phrase "Son of God" meant having the nature of God (and not a diiferent nature as the JW's teach). Just as Jesus' claim to be "the Son of man" was a claim to having the nature of man, his claim to being "the Son of God" was a claim to having the nature of God. I myself am the son of my father Leo, hense I am just as human as he is. Jesus was the Son of God hense he is just as much God as his Father is.

  "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." John 5:17-18 (Jesus's claim to be the Son of God was a claim to the nature of God).

  This is also the way that the Jewish leaders understood the claim:

  "I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." John 10:30-33

  "The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God." John 19:7
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  Earnest

  Hooberus:

  The Holy Spirit is not created by the Father and the Son, nor begotten, but proceeds...Whoever would be saved, let him thus think concerning the Trinity.

  Surely that should read The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. This is the notorious filioque clause which is completely rejected by the Eastern Orthodox churches both in the Athanasian and the Nicene Creeds. They do not accept the Holy Spirit can proceed from both the Father and the Son, and it was not part of the original Nicene Creed anyway. So as the Western half of the Christian churches think differently to the Eastern half concerning the trinity, which half will be saved ?
  

  Earnest
• 

  hooberus

  Earnest earlier I said:

  "My main reason for posting the Athanasian creed here is to give an authoritative explanation of the doctrine of the Trinity. I don't think that a person has to be able to quote the Athanasian creed for salvation, however one does need to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ in order to be saved. One componet of the gospel is the deity (having the nature of God and thus being God) of Jesus Christ."

  As to the Holy Spirit, I think that as long as a person believes in the deity of the Spirit, that the "proceed" issue may be open.
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  mizpah

  Only orthodoxy thinks that the Arian creed was apostate. But many churchmen of the time vascillated between the teachings of Athanasius and Arian...as did Constantine and his sons. Some even tried to compromise the two beliefs. It seems that the teachings were still "in flux" during the 4th century. To be sure, orthodoxy won out. But the unitarian belief, although in the minority, is still alive and well among Christians today.

  I think the teaching of the Catholic church about others not of Catholic faith gaining salvation outside the church is mainly for public consumption. Just recently I talked with a Catholic nun who was quite candid in saying there is no salvation outside the church. She said one must partake of the sacraments of the church to gain God's approval. And I get the feeling that this is probably reflective of the official view.
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  Earnest

  Hooberus, my point is that you were quoting the Western version of the Athanasian Creed. Most Greek copies (i.e. the Eastern version) omit "and the Son" in referring to the procession of the Holy Spirit (cf. Migne, P.G. 28, 177 B ). So my point is that, in fact, there is no authoritative explanation of the doctrine of the trinity which is universally acceptable to those churches which believe it.

  While you may not consider the matter of procession vital to our salvation, it was one of the primary causes of the Great Schism which split the Eastern and Western churches in the eleventh century (and still does), and you will certainly find that few members of the Orthodox churches consider the issue to be "open". In fact, they only rescinded their excommunication of Pope Leo IX (1049 – 1054) in 1965!

  Earnest
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  Yerusalyim

  Mizpah,

  The Nun is correct...there is no salvation outside the church...I'm also correct...there will be Jews and Muslims and Buddhists in Heaven along with us Christians...However...there aren't teachings in the church that are for "public consumption" and others that aren't...there are mysteries in Church teaching...but not secrets.

  Here's what the church teaches on "No Salvation Outside The Church" in the Cathecism of the Catholic Church...definitive on Catholic teaching. Also, highlighted and bolded, in the same passage...is what the church teaches about salvation for non-Christians.

  846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
  
  

  Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 336

  847

  This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
  
  

  Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

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  "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
• 

  funkyderek

  As to the Holy Spirit, I think that as long as a person believes in the deity of the Spirit, that the "proceed" issue may be open.

  And what gives you the authority to make that decision? You've decided that agreeing with most - but not necessarily all - of this extrabiblical document is necessary for salvation. On what basis do you make that assumption?