Just Re-Read 1984

by Francois 39 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Francois

  Neon, just on this board, if you wanted to go back and labor through all the posts, you could come up with a pretty good list of complaints of what the society has changed from the original publication vs what in the bound volumes and the CD. The fact that you haven't seen but one or two personally doesn't alter the fact that there are hundreds of changes. That is the same kind of thinking you'd find in 1984.

  If you want the evidence, instead of insisting on having it spoon-fed to you, I suggest the experience would be much more valuable to you if you'd do the research for yourself.

  Frank
• 

  NeonMadman

  Frank, the reason I asked the question was that your remark surprised me. I was not aware of any direct alteration of text from an original publication to a supposed exact reprint, except for the 1989 WT that I cited. Everyone is insisting that there are many, but no one has cited even one more example, and I'm not completely convinced that there are any others of that particular nature.

  Now, to clarify, I'm not talking about:

  • Normal changes in doctrine ("new light"), in which older teachings are reversed in newer publications.
  • Text changes in subsequent editions of the same books, e.g. the 1914 predictions being removed from post-1914 editions of Studies in the Scriptures, or the teaching about the men of Sodom being changed in the later edition of the Live Forever book.
  • Selective quoting, where modern articles in the Watchtower quote things that were said in earlier times out of context to give the impression that what was said was on the money, when, in fact, if the whole quotation were read, it would become immediately apparent that the statement was way off the mark.

  What I'm talking about are alterations in what is supposed to be an exact reprint of an existing publication, in which the text has been changed to cover up an "inappropriate" statement in the original. Now, given those criteria, can you cite any other examples?

  I recently had an online conversation with a JW who insisted that the Bible is full of references to God having an organization. When I asked her where I could find some of them, she said, "It's all over the Bible, do your own research!" and ended the conversation. Obviously, she didn't know of any scriptures proving "God's organization," because there are none.

  With absolutely no offense intended, I really don't think that your telling me to 'do the research for myself' is an appropriate response. You made the assertion that there are many such examples that could be cited; I think the burden of proof reasonably rests with you (and/or any of the others who are similarly claiming that there are many such instances). I'm not looking for a comprehensive listing or a major research paper; I'm just asking you to support your own statements by giving me a few other examples where this sort of thing happened, if indeed there are any.
• 

  AlanF

  George Orwell's two books, and The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses, are certainly on the money!

  As for the claims that the Watchtower has made 'hundreds of alterations' in the WT-CDROM and in other publications -- bunk.

  I know of only one possible instance where the material in the CDROM and the printed stuff doesn't correspond, and that was posted a few days ago. Something about a chunk of 'old light' from Your Will Be Done On Earth being excised from the latest CDROM. I haven't checked it myself, so I'm going only on what I read on this board.

  I know of only one instance where the Watchtower bound volumes don't correspond to the circulated version of The Watchtower, as Neonmadman said, in the Jan. 1, 1989 issue. But the CDROM still reflects what was in the bound volume.

  What is definitely documentable is that in some of the Indexes, some 'old light' is no longer referred to. While I find this extremely objectionable, I believe that Watchtower justifies it by claiming that the Indexes are pointers to current doctrine. However, this doesn't hold up under examination because there are plenty of instances where 'old light' is still referred to by the Indexes. I suspect that in some cases, they wanted to excise references to some particularly objectionable 'old light'. However, this still doesn't say anything about the Index material on the CDROM, since that material is always from the latest printed publication.

  Francois said:

  : Neon, just on this board, if you wanted to go back and labor through all the posts, you could come up with a pretty good list of complaints of what the society has changed from the original publication vs what in the bound volumes and the CD.

  I don't think so. I've seen many claims that this is so, but no actual examples. Of course, we're not talking about the hundreds of instances where a later publication misquotes an earlier one, or leads the read to misinterpret an older one, and so forth. We're talking about what I've bolded in your above statement.

  : The fact that you haven't seen but one or two personally doesn't alter the fact that there are hundreds of changes. That is the same kind of thinking you'd find in 1984.

  The slur aside, you're making the claim, and so you need to provide the proof. As you well know, I'd like nothing more than to nail Watchtower to the wall by documenting 'hundreds' of examples of changes. And that's just the point: Watchtower well knows that plenty of critics are watching everything they do in order to catch them in a documentable lie, and so they're very careful to dot every 'i' and cross every 't' when it comes to putting publications on the CDROM.

  I've been told by certain knowledgeable people that there are a few cases other than the Jan. 1, 1989 WT one, where the Society changed something in the bound volumes compared to the original circulated versions, but these were said to be minor, and they could give no specifics.

  : If you want the evidence, instead of insisting on having it spoon-fed to you, I suggest the experience would be much more valuable to you if you'd do the research for yourself.

  I personally have done thousands of hours of research in WTS publications and have yet to see any changes (with the above possible exception). If you can provide even a mere five examples out the supposed 'hundreds', it would be most helpful in documenting Watchtower lies.

  AlanF
• 

  DanTheMan

  1984 was an excellent book. I read it back in 2000, right around the time I started my mental withdrawal from the borg.

  Frank, did you know that Orwell was a Socialist?
• 

  Francois

  Yes, I at least have read Orwell was a socialist, apparently a thinking one who could in honesty engage in reductio ad absurdum and who was able to look far enough into the future to see where socialism would take England and other countries. I believe him to be more than precise in his observations; I have seen parts of what he predicted in practice by the extreme left in the USA.

  If I were going to do the research necessary to prove the contention in the original post, I would start with the following sites:

  Research on the Watchtower http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm
  JWs A Critical Analysis http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7831/light.html

  I would have with me, just for fun:

  The Nizkor Fallacies Project http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

  As for the question itself, how many examples would you need of a changed or omitted document on the WTBTS CD-ROM to discredit the organization? Given that we are dealing with an organization that claims to represent God, I say that only ONE such example is needed. Even one would be a scandal throughout all creation encompassing all evolved life in each and every galaxy in all inhabited space throughout all future time. God does not lie; if He did, He would not be God. End of conversation. So whether there is one such change or hundreds or two or ten matters not. And we already know there is one. Any more is gratuitously superfluous. The point is made. And I don't care a fig if this is God's organization run by imperfect men. That is but a shallow dodge dreamed up by imperfect men.

  Is there more than one example on the CD? I believe there is. Can I prove it? No, not without extensive research; I am repeating what I have heard, frankly. Will I personally dedicated the time needed? No. The WTBTS has already revealed what is it by the one provable change it has made. It is a waste of time to prove that the murderer of one person has killed ten others; the one is sufficient for the needle.

  I would hate to have the karma of the WTBTS and its "leaders."

  Frank
• 

  IronGland

  Yeah, he was, but both animal farm and 1984 give the impression that he was disturbed with how it turned out when actually put into practicein the USSR. It's pretty easy to see that 'Big Brother' and 'Goldstein' were Stalin and Trotsky.
• 

  AlanF

  Francois said:

  : If I were going to do the research necessary to prove the contention in the original post, I would start with the following sites:

  : Research on the Watchtower http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm

  Francois, let me explain something to you: I wrote more than half the words on that site. I have read virtually all of the other words on that site. Nothing on that site supports your claim of 'hundreds of alterations'.

  : JWs A Critical Analysis http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7831/light.html

  Nothing here supports your claim either.

  : I would have with me, just for fun:

  : The Nizkor Fallacies Project http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

  While the Watchtower certainly freely practices most of the fallacies described here, generalities prove nothing about your specific contention that 'hundreds of alterations' have been made.

  : As for the question itself, how many examples would you need of a changed or omitted document on the WTBTS CD-ROM to discredit the organization?

  Just one, obviously. But that's not the point here. The point here is that you claimed 'hundreds of alterations'. I asked for a mere five. You can supply none. Where does that leave your claim?

  : Given that we are dealing with an organization that claims to represent God, I say that only ONE such example is needed. Even one would be a scandal throughout all creation encompassing all evolved life in each and every galaxy in all inhabited space throughout all future time. God does not lie; if He did, He would not be God.

  I agree.

  : End of conversation.

  No. You made a specific claim. You can't back it up. I've seen no evidence for it and neither has anyone else -- otherwise they'd provide the necessary documentation.

  Please, please, please! If anyone can show me even five examples of Francois's claim, post them! Even one example!

  : So whether there is one such change or hundreds or two or ten matters not.

  Not as far as proving that the Watchtower has nothing to do with God, but everything to do with proving your claim.

  I'm not beating you up because I like to, Francois. I'm harping on this because I'm tired of seeing ridiculous and unsupported, dogmatic claims made that braindead JWs can use to reinforce their nonsensical claim that all 'apostates' are liars. Your claim provides excellent ammunition for them. Don't you see this?

  : And we already know there is one.

  Which one? The change to the Jan. 1, 1989 bound volume? If so, you're off base on your basic claim because that was done before the CDROM even existed. If it's the Your Will thing, then you may have a point. I'll look into this after I finished posting this response.

  : Any more is gratuitously superfluous. The point is made.

  You're trying to shift the focus of the discussion. Look at the website you linked to above and figure out what fallacy that is. I'll do it for you if you like.

  : And I don't care a fig if this is God's organization run by imperfect men. That is but a shallow dodge dreamed up by imperfect men.

  True, but again not relevant to your main claim.

  : Is there more than one example on the CD? I believe there is.

  I know of just one example on the CDROM (the Your Will thing). But you claimed that hundreds of examples have been given on the above websites, which go back many years.

  : Can I prove it? No, not without extensive research; I am repeating what I have heard, frankly.

  I'm glad you finally admitted this to yourself.

  : Will I personally dedicated the time needed? No.

  So you admit that you base your claim on hearsay evidence, despite the fact that I, who wrote a lot of the material on one of the websites you linked to above, tell you point blank that it contains nothing that supports your claim? And you now state that you're not willing to consider the actual evidence. What kind of thinker are you?

  : The WTBTS has already revealed what is it by the one provable change it has made.

  Again, which one?

  : It is a waste of time to prove that the murderer of one person has killed ten others; the one is sufficient for the needle.

  You're not reasoning properly. You made a claim that 'hundreds of alterations' were made to the CDROM. You can document at most one. One murder, a murderer makes. One lie, a liar makes. We agree on that. But one lie does not ten make. Get the point?

  : I would hate to have the karma of the WTBTS and its "leaders."

  Nor would I. If there's a God, and those assholes had to face him, I can only imagine how he would call down evil upon them. My favorite Bible passage bearing on this is Job 13:7-12. In the New Living Translation it reads:

  "Are you defending God by means of lies and dishonest arguments? You should be impartial witnesses, but will you slant your testimony in his favor? Will you argue God’s case for him? Be careful that he doesn’t find out what you are doing! Or do you think you can fool him as easily as you fool people? No, you will be in serious trouble with him if even in your hearts you slant your testimony in his favor. Doesn’t his majesty strike terror into your heart? Does not your fear of him seize you? Your statements have about as much value as ashes. Your defense is as fragile as a clay pot."

  Exit, Watchtower.

  AlanF
• 

  Satanus

  I see some of orwell forming up in the current us govt war on terror as well. Specifically the indefinitely lasting war against an indefinite enemy, who could strike at any place at any time. The goal, as in the book, is to keep up the fear level. Also, as in the book, is the fact that an enemy is essential.

  SS
• 

  heathen

  I'm with you on that SS . The WT amounts to nothing compared to the government making moves toward socialism and communism . It is clear that Orwell was talking about a controlling government that went to the point of altering reality . The WT is just a cult that has limited potential on the control spectrum . I think the moral of the story with orwell was that absolute power corrupts absolutely .
• 

  doodle-v

  *clap clap*

  hear hear heathen and SS