Agreed XW. I don't care much for statements like this as it puts us all at a distance from one another. The key, I believe, is the desire to understand. If the desire is there, then understanding follows. It's not hard.
Just Get Over It?
by sens 41 Replies latest jw friends
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Brummie
I agree with XW too, I will always be grateful to the none exjws who supported me when I was leaving the JWs, they really did understand. Naturally a lot of people who have never been JWs will not understand but there are the few that do.
Brummie
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Steve Lowry
Nobody who isnt or hasnt been a jw can truly understand...
Xena, Big and Brummie,
There actually is merit to this comment. While I certainly applaud those who make every attempt to understand the JW experience (and we need these folks), no one, and I mean no one, can completely comprehend this religion with all of its peculiarities and it’s idiosyncrasies, in the way that only someone who has actually been an active Jehovah’s Witness, can. The reason for this (IMO) is because of the mind control. You can study this religion, you can even become an expert about it, but if you’ve never experienced the mind control personally, then you’re at somewhat of a loss to relate, as it were. You have to go through the fire (from JW to XJW) to know what it is all about.
I don’t mean to split hairs here, or to diminish the love and concern those have for the JW/XJW, who happen to be on the outside looking in. But they will always be ‘looking in’ on a way of life that they never personally experienced.
Steve . . .
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Brummie
Steve I agree. I think none Jws who have been in an abusive relationship do have an insight into the emotions associated with abusive religion (its the same abusive program), but naturally only an exjw can understand the transition from JW to ex jw.
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Steve Lowry
Hey Brummie,
That's a pretty good parallel of an analogy. There certainly is mind control in play in abusive relationships (especially where the woman is the victim). They (the victim) have to come finally to the conclusion they have been lied to and abused and have to stop the cycle. It is indeed similar to the JW experience.
I also agree with you that the JW experience is unique unto itself.
Steve . . .
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Guest 77
Sens, I like your colorful replies. You've been given plenty of information to think about.
Guest 77
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Lady Lee
I have worked with and spoken with people from other cults
believe me - they understand
but the average person with no abuse history has a much harder time
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xenawarrior
There actually is merit to this comment. While I certainly applaud those who make every attempt to understand the JW experience (and we need these folks), no one, and I mean no one, can completely comprehend this religion with all of its peculiarities and it’s idiosyncrasies, in the way that only someone who has actually been an active Jehovah’s Witness, can. The reason for this (IMO) is because of the mind control. You can study this religion, you can even become an expert about it, but if you’ve never experienced the mind control personally, then you’re at somewhat of a loss to relate, as it were. You have to go through the fire (from JW to XJW) to know what it is all about. I don’t mean to split hairs here, or to diminish the love and concern those have for the JW/XJW, who happen to be on the outside looking in. But they will always be ‘looking in’ on a way of life that they never personally experienced. Steve . . .
Steve:
Please don't get me wrong- I'm not trying to say that there is no merit in that statement. What I am saying is that if there is a reason for someone to want to understand and a willingness- they will. No, they won't truly understand what it was like to actually "be there" for the specifics of it but is it really necessary for them to in order to understand how the affects of those specifics have manifested themselves in your lives? I personally don't think so.
When you were a JW there was an eliteness about it that noone who wasn't a JW could understand you. You were taught that what you were involved in was special and those not involved were considered outsiders who couldn't possibly understand. Now, as an ex-JW, if you really believe that noone could truly understand, you are transferring that dynamic to another place and noone could possibly understand where you have been and they are still outsiders. You then run the risk of being as dismissive with "outsiders" with that as the insensitive neverbeens might be to the plight of the ex-jw.
Trauma is trauma no matter what it's origin. And the affects it has on people will be similar with totally different types of trauma having been experienced. People who suffer Post Traumatic Stress symptoms may have had totally different experiences but it may effect them in some ways exactly the same. And to that they can each relate even though they didn't experience the same events which caused it. They will understand. They may not feel the same kind of kinship they will with someone who experienced the same exact thing but even when situations are exactly the same they are different also. No experience is identical.
I've never been a JW and I have learned a great deal about the religion. I did it because I needed to understand what someone who was very dear to me was involved in. So I could understand. And, I might be an exception here but I do understand. I don't need to have been through all of the idiosyncrasies in order to see what they were and how they are designed to work and how they would obviously have affected someone. Others are capable of this as well. And since I learned this, I've made some friends here and I can understand them and how they might feel or why they might react a certain way based on what they've been through with all of this. I didn't have to go through the fire to understand the actual pain of the ensuing burn.
If you give them a chance and they really want to - they will understand and if they care, they'll be supportive and they can do all of that without ever having been inside a Kingdom Hall.
Just my thoughts on this.
XW
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Sir Paul
Tink: - I'm Really sorry to hear that... 'I' would certainly understand of course! {wink wink}
Well, it's like David Reed said in his book (which I got from the library) 'BLOOD ON THE ALTAR'... That depending on whatever amount of time that you spent WITHIN the Org getting yourself INDOCTRINATED... It's reasonable to expect it to take an almost equal amount getting Dis-Indoctrinated.. It just takes a lot of time, there's no overnight cures when it comes to something like this.
I've been away from them for years, (8 or 9 now) and I've read a few books by other people that had escaped the org themselves (Barbara Harrison's 'Visions of Glory' was my first) and that helped me a great deal... And it's amazing to me now, that as real as it might have seemed then.. How completely ridiculous and cultlike it obviously is now...
But that's 'the rub' for me I guess, that continues to cause me to dwell on those years long passed - that there are many others now, particularly young children, many of which could have bright futures otherwise, that are trapped in this 'man-serving nonsense' that ultimately has no real purpose..
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Steve Lowry
Xena,
" . . . no one, can completely comprehend this religion with all of its peculiarities and it’s idiosyncrasies, in the way that only someone who has actually been an active Jehovah’s Witness can."
I must stand by this statement. The operative word here is, "completely". Surely any compassionate and intelligent individual who, although never been one of Jehovah’s’ Witnesses, could and should be able to empathize with the JW, or former JW, as it were. But not completely. That would be impossible. It’s not a snub, it’s just a matter on social mechanics. It is just as impossible for me, a white male, to completely understand what it must be like to be an African American. I’m intelligent (uh, somewhat anyway) and compassionate, but I could never claim to be able to completely understand their experience. That dose not impede my ability (or my responsibly) to join with others and to be effective in trying to understand my fellow man’s burden and make changes. But I’ll never know what his experience is like in its entirety. It isn’t that I should think my black friend feels elitist because he say’s than I can’t completely identify with him. Instead, I must respect and understand the limitations of the situation.
"Now, as an ex-JW, if you really believe that noone could truly understand, you are transferring that dynamic (elitism) to another place and noone could possibly understand where you have been and they are still outsiders. You then run the risk of being as dismissive with "outsiders" with that as the insensitive neverbeens might be to the plight of the ex-jw. "
I can’t speak for someone else, but for me at least, its not being an elitist to make the statement that someone who has never been a JW can’t completely understand what it’s like to have been one. I’m sorry if it may come off that way, but I wouldn’t be being completely honest with myself, to not recognize this reality. We may have to agree to disagree, agreeably, on this one. My wife who could pass any JW "test" due to her willingness and involvement to help former JW’s along with me with our little ministry (Life After The Watchtower) concedes her limitations to completely "get it".
I think maybe where we’re ‘missing’ each other, is that you may feel I’m diminishing you’re ability to ‘help’. No way! In fact someone who is ‘on the outside looking in’, very often has the more objective view than someone else who is too close. In that way, you and others who have never been ‘inside’ can be of great assistance to those who are hurting and need someone to help show them the way out. Most active Jehovah’s Witnesses won’t even listen to us former JW’s, because we have been so demonized by the Watchtower Society. I like to think of it as a team. Those of us who have come out of the cults with our experiences and those who haven’t been in, but have the skills and compassion, joining forces to help the hurting and the lost. Together we can make the difference.
Steve