The fanciful tale in the NT about Jeus expelling demons from a man by sending them into 2000 swine who subsequently leap into the sea and drown, has always perplexed me. Aside from the contradictions and other problems in the two versians of the story(eg. number of possessed men, no "sea" for 30 some miles from place of setting etc.) I have always wondered why would Jesus have felt free to destroy someones herd? (Swine were likely the property of a nonJew) Or why would he want to hurt the animals? (Steven Hawkins remarked when read the story, " PETA would not have liked that.") Why did they beg to go into the pigs to prevent being in the "empty places" only to direct the pigs to their death? Something was wrong. The answer is found in the Pagan Mysteries once again. According to ancient sources like Aristophane's "The Peace", pigs were assumed the ability to absorb evil from men. This why in the Eleusian Mysteries (hundreds of years BC) initiates of the cult each took a pig and as part of the rite took the pig to the sea and sacrificed it by drowning. According to two sources, a famous recounting of this rite involved 2000 pigs being drowned by rushing them over a cliff into the sea. The syncretic authors of the Gospels perhaps saw this as the basis for yet another Jesus prophecy. It is considered by some that the name "Legion" was not merely incidental to the story but rather a clue to the true meaning. As it happens the Legion (in this case 2000 soldiers)of Romans that occupied Jerusalem bore the standard of the pig. (Josephus, Wars of the Jews 7.1.3) It is therefore possible that the story was written to attribute to Jesus the foreknowledge of what would happen to Jerusalem in detail, while at the same time offer hope of liberation. If this is so, the liberation never came. It was coincidences such as this that fed superstitious minds seeking signs of deliverance.
here piggy piggy
by peacefulpete 11 Replies latest watchtower bible
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shotgun
Interesting pete
I was just coincidentally reading those verses the other day and remarked to my wife, why was there 2000 pigs in an area where pork was forbidden. Did they raise pork and sell it to the gentiles or were they in a gentile area of the country?
Demons seemed to be blamed for everything at that time. Even a dumb demon was expelled which had rendered a man dumb...speechless I presume. They attributed almost all ailments to demons.
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Robdar
Hi Pete,
Good post--thanks.
I have wondered about this story myself. It had made no sense until your post. I also have wondered why Jesus would curse a fig tree causing it to wither and die just because it was out of season.
I truly believe that the storytellers of Jesus (and other stories in the Bible) made it up as they went along. Each time one of their listeners said "wait a minute, why did they do that?" or "hey, that makes no sense", the story got embellished even more.
There is much good advice in the Bible. But, let's face it, there's a lot of crap too.
Robyn
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Winston Smith :>D
When my wife and I were doing the Bible reading this year [before my awakening and I was being a good head of the household] after we read this account in both of the Gospel books [forget which ones now] we read it, re-read it, and read it again.
She asked me if I understood the discrepencies between the two accounts, why they wanted to go in the pigs, why they jumped in the sea to die, etc..
I told her i didn't get it either, and usually I'm the know-it-all in the family. I'd research it more when I had some time. Of course, being a dub and trying to keep up with preparing for all the meetings and preparing for service, I never got to it, but was afraid there wouldn't be a real good answer.
Winston.
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Euphemism
Did they raise pork and sell it to the gentiles or were they in a gentile area of the country?
The latter. The story is set in the country of the Gadarenes (or Gerasenes), on the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee. This was part of the region of the Decapolis, a group of Greek colonies in Eastern Palestine.
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JCanon
It is therefore possible that the story was written to attribute to Jesus the foreknowledge of what would happen to Jerusalem in detail, while at the same time offer hope of liberation. If this is so, the liberation never came. It was coincidences such as this that fed superstitious minds seeking signs of deliverance.
Very interesting!! Thanks for this post. I too felt there was something "more" to that story about the pigs. As far as their hope of being rescued at that time, the disciples had knowledge from Jesus that Jerusalem would be destroyed and the people taken into exile among the nations "until the appointed times of the nations were fulfilled"...and then they could expect liberation. Jerusalem was trampled upon and the Jews were in exile until 1947, which was the end of the appointed times of the nations. The Messiah would appear 45 years later....that's another issue. But the Bible doesn't provide for any liberation until after that "appointed time" was fulfilled, so their deliverance did finally come. The Jews did finally regain their homeland and now the State of Israel if the fulfillment of that promise.
But getting back to pigs. I have not yet figured out QUITE what that reference can be. In the Bible, as you know, "dogs" are a euphemism for bi-sexual men who sodomize other men. The euphemism came from the coital position generally assumed during the prostitution act which resembled dogs having intercourse, thus they became known as "dogs". Dogs appear in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. But "pigs" appear in the story of the "prodigal son" which is also a reference to this same individual. Lazarus and the prodigal son are the same reference.
So what do "pigs" represent in the Jewish culture? Another type of homosexual? or perhaps a gentile, being generally of european extraction and, therefore white. For sure pigs are pinkish. The reason why this "might" be a correct reference is because Isa 53 does say that the second coming Messiah would be buried among the "rich". The buring of the Messiah at the second coming relates to the prodigal son at the time he leaves his fathers house and is said to dwell with the pigs. So I'm wondering if the vague reference here to pigs being white gentiles?
I think it's pertinent, though I hope it's not offensive to anyone, but the "rich man" in the scriptures when not specifically a reference to the "evil slave" could be a general reference to a class of people generally considered to be rich which in our world is ultimately the Euopean gentile. The European is the ultimate "rich man" is he not?
So I'm wondering what, if any, secret reference is there in what happened? Is a "pig" a rich gentile?
I know the Jews looked down on gentiles and considered them "unclean". Did they casually represent a gentile as a "pig"?
When Jesus was speaking to a Samaritan woman regarding speaking to her he said he would not give the bread of the children to "little dogs"; thus he considered the Samaritans compared to the Jews as the pets around the table of the chosen ones. But she said even the crumbs they give to the dogs. Soo.....if the Samaritans, who were dark complected were in station generally called a "little dog", then is the general reference to a "pig" by a Jew their colliquial reference to a rich white man?
OR.....is it also a reference to a homosexual?
The reason is because pigs are considered to stay in "penned in places" and generally homosexuals psychologically could be culturally thought to be in that situation, penned in, as it were, by their desires, hemmed in by their psychological state.
At any rate, I'm tending to think it's another euphemism for a homosexual. Lazarus at the second coming was specifically to be impaled in "Sodom" thus the association with herding pigs is direct.
Oops! Maybe they are BOTH! Did the Jews bother to distinguish a gay white gentile from others? Or were gay white gentiles sort of their own distinct category in the Jewish world at that time that the Jews would have a euphemistic reference to them as "pigs"? You know, they are white, rolling around in filth? filth being considered what homosexuals do. Anal intercourse sometimes soils one's body, etc. thus the filth is a reference to having sex in the context of excretement, etc.
But...if so, let's say the above is correct. Then two things are implied. One is that a larger percentage of demonic influence would permeate among "pigs" (whatever the assignment) but also once the "sons of the kingdom" don't show up for the banquet of the Messiah on time, then among these "penned in ones" substitute saints would be sought at the last minute.
So....are white, homosexual males a target for the kingdom in the last stages? Or are homosexuals in general a target? Or are rich white men a target?
Hmmmm... What could "pigs" represent in the Jewish culture that we can learn something about?
If I come up with something more definitive, I'll let you know.
Thanks for this article though! I guess it's time to maybe figure this out or rule out some of the generalities!!!
JCanon (processing!)
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bikerchic
Interesting and something else I've never really gave much thought while reading the Bible, but now I'm getting the picture that the Bible is after all THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD.........just like you said:
The answer is found in the Pagan Mysteries once again. According to ancient sources like Aristophane's "The Peace", pigs were assumed the ability to absorb evil from men. This why in the Eleusian Mysteries (hundreds of years BC) initiates of the cult each took a pig and as part of the rite took the pig to the sea and sacrificed it by drowning. According to two sources, a famous recounting of this rite involved 2000 pigs being drowned by rushing them over a cliff into the sea. The syncretic authors of the Gospels perhaps saw this as the basis for yet another Jesus prophecy. It is considered by some that the name "Legion" was not merely incidental to the story but rather a clue to the true meaning. As it happens the Legion (in this case 2000 soldiers)of Romans that occupied Jerusalem bore the standard of the pig. (Josephus, Wars of the Jews 7.1.3)
Yep just another one of the tales passed down from one ancient civilization to another, to another, to another and eventually written down by the Hebrews, then passed along to Christianity. It's all a story!
Which is why I have as my avatar the flying pigs.......I'll go back when pigs fly!
Kate
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JCanon
Yep just another one of the tales passed down from one ancient civilization to another, to another, to another and eventually written down by the Hebrews, then passed along to Christianity. It's all a story!
Interesting, but I think it might be something more than this; something more generic. Like maybe the angels find some delight in possessing a pig that drowns. It's one thing to borrow a tradition but something had to originate it--some mysteries symbolism of the pig itself or it's connection with demonism and Satanism. I'm still questioning why the demons prefer pigs after humans to posses. Or does a drowned pig provide some kind of a special relaxation of the torment cast out spirits have to deal with?
But I agree, alot in the "mysteries" seem to reflect some of the original understanding of what went on in Eden.
But to me Satan and the mysteries mock God and his arrangement in some way.
One story of the mysteries I compare to scripture, and this is the Eleussian mystery, is Dementer crying over her daughter who goes into Hades and then returns and her joy at that return. That's similar to the prodigal son being lost for a while in "Hades", in spiritual death, and the Father weeping over the loss but when that one returns, goes out to meet him and gives him new robes, "the best one" meaning he makes him the chief heir of the house, and delights over him, giving him a banquet. Even in scripture the "lost sheep" becomes the "lost coin" that is lost and the woman sweeps her house and frets over that one lost coin until she finds it and then when she does calls her neighbors over to rejoice.
So what is suggested, is that somewhere in the Jewish ancient folklore, they knew even back then that at the second coming the Messiah would die in Hades and be lost for a while and then when he returned the Father would make a huge fuss over him, in reality choosing him to be the Messiah. Thus the mysteries mocks God's choice to elevate the sinful son, the one who died in Hades (in sin) but came back, over all others.
And perhaps that has a generally greater meaning too, since mankind in a way was like that. They were lost in Hades, in death, in the abyss until Jove, caring for them, tried to get them back via the ransom sacrifice.
A further attest to the mysteries being linked to Satanism, in this setting, the banished and resentful angel, is in alchemy where we find Chronos using a sickle to cut of the feet of mercury, a symbol of Satan brusing the Messiah in the heel. That's likely as well the basis for the Achille's heel mythology.
But you see, the difference is, we are looking at parallel references to the folklore coming from Noah and the prophecies about the Messiah and the second coming. And somehow, the details have survived in the mysteries about what would happen and how.
The mysteries have not escaped scripture either. The "wilderness" in Revelation is a specific reference to the underground world in which the "mysteries" secret societies operate and the JIOR, God's own chosen secret society cult of Christ that know the Messiah is based in the "wilderness" as well. I suppose, since the "mysteries" and the practice of all that secretism made it necessary for the core true church to become a secret society as well, since how could it protect itself from imposters and spies of Satan if they were a public institution; anyone can infiltrate a public group or even a privately organized secret group. What was profane would become holy--that is, the ways of the mysteries would be adopted to benefit the JIOR, the secret society of Christ at the second coming so that Satan's mystical organizations couldn't see it. They identify themselves to each other, but to no outsiders.
I'll tell you this though. There are lots of secret "watchers" in the mysteries looking around at everything and hoping to find clues of the JIOR that they know exist. But God makes his own people recognize them in unusual ways. One way is he makes them do something unconcious so that we can identity who they are. For instance, for a while, he would make them get hot and start sweating, so we'd know he was a cult "watcher". Or he'd make them do some mannerism that we recognized, so we always knew who we were dealing with. But between the JIOR other things would go on between the members. But for sure, how can any regular mytery cult compete with holy spirit. You know, holy spirit can arrange for two people two be at the same place at the same time "coincidentally" without prior communication, etc. So even is somebody was watching constantly, they couldn't figure it out. That means I could be traveling across country and stop at some rest stop to eat or something and leave a secret message in some hidden place and a JIOR would come to that spot and be guided to find it, often when I'm still around or just leaving.
So...I don't discount the mysteries and the Satanic influence and information they have...it's relevant to what is going on and to what was prophesied, but the Bible has it's own original version of the same stories, it doesn't have to borrow from the pagans.
JCanon
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bikerchic
But you see, the difference is, we are looking at parallel references to the folklore coming from Noah and the prophecies about the Messiah and the second coming. And somehow, the details have survived in the mysteries about what would happen and how.
WE ahhh contrair, not I ! I've recently been viewing these tapes and have completely changed my views of the Bible and God. Some of the things discussed are:
Examine the Bible's astrological and Hindu references.
"End of the World ie; End of the Ages, from the age of Pisces to the age of Aquarius in the Zodiac, see how the Bible is nothing more than a Hebrew reference to the Zodiac.
Discover the stellar god (from the stars) the lunar god (from the moon) and the god El (from Saturn) and how they have influenced various religions.
Uncanny similarities between the Virgin births of Krishna, Mithra, Indra, Prometheus and Jesus.
Underlying astroligical symbolism behind our religious and governmental institutions, such as the two fish of Christianity representing the Age of Pices.
How sun worship of the pagans was transformed into "Son" worship of today's Christians and.....and this is the good part........the far-reaching impact Freemasons have had throughout history on our society and our belief systems. As well as the origins of the Freemasons and learn to decode occult symbols in order to gain a greater understanding of their influence on world finance.
Here are the tapes I'm refering to:
PM me if you would like to know where to get them.
Peace
Kate
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JCanon
Hi BC....
Oh great stuff. This looks good!!! I'm really into the ancient mysteries and all that....I'll just comment quickly so you don't think I've ignored anything, but...
WE ahhh contrair, not I ! I've recently been viewing these tapes and have completely changed my views of the Bible and God. Some of the things discussed are:
I can totally understand that, but I have my reference points as well.
Examine the Bible's astrological and Hindu references.
Well, per the Bible, which assigns the identity of the church to the "moon", the angels to "stars" and the "son" to the Sun, it's a matter of thinking this was originally the case and the Bible's reference is simply parallel to that of the pagans or there was borrowing. But the option is there. The Garden of Eden was a "pattern" of what was in Heaven. "Let us make man in our image, male and female..." was a reference to the two covering cherubs, Michael and the angel who became Satan who is called "woman" at Genesis 3:15 thus Jesus/Michael's wife. Further, the man Adam represented Michael as did the Tree of Life, whereas the woman/Satan was represented by Eve and the Tree of Knowledge. Thus you have tree goddesses giving "milk" knowledge to it's followers, a key issue for the mother goddesses and attaining deification, etc. A long discussion, but very much a part of Eden and thus would have been passed on by Noah as a central conceptual idea of what happened. Further, as noted, the woman, who is beautiful but whose light comes fromt he sun is the woman, and Jesus the sun.
So my argument would be that Jesus is not a copy of Mithras but visa versa. Jesus/Michael was already the original "sun god"--the others are cheap imitations or competitive substitutes. But we agree that the "similarities" are more than that, that they are referencing the same things. I don't think it's a coincidence either.
"End of the World ie; End of the Ages, from the age of Pisces to the age of Aquarius in the Zodiac, see how the Bible is nothing more than a Hebrew reference to the Zodiac.
Sorry, the end of Satan's world, a new paradise earth and a savior that brings back dying mankind, plus two gods fighting one another, good vs evil, is an Edenic theme. In that case it would have come down through Noah and thus the Jews needn't have borrowed it from the pagans, they would have gotten it from Noah. Thus the Jews and the pagans have each their own version of the Noachin folklore of Eden, etc. It doesn't necessarily have to be a borrowing from some other culture....
Discover the stellar god (from the stars) the lunar god (from the moon) and the god El (from Saturn) and how they have influenced various religions.
No problem. These physical things were meant to represent heavenly things. 12 is a celestial number, the 12 tribes of Israel simply fell into place with the cosmos. It was appropriate that when Jesus came to the earth, cosmologically connected with the sun that Mary's annuncition, the conception of Jesus was at the time of the winter solstice, the birth of the sun. Likewise, the spring Passover Festival (when the Messiah dies) and the fall "Festival of Booths" (when the Messiah arrives) overlap the seasonal equinoxes. In fact, Jesus' own circumcision on the 8th day of the festival in 2BC falls on the equninox; so coordination with the heavenly bodies is definitely part of the Biblical story. Plus it's ongoing. That is, some interesting astral phenomenon still occurs on Biblically significant years and dates.
Uncanny similarities between the Virgin births of Krishna, Mithra, Indra, Prometheus and Jesus.
Not uncanny, the SAME reference. If Noah communicated to his family the story about Eden, the evil angel Satan and the war between Satan and Michael that was coming (good vs evil) and how this king would come to the earth and die and as a result of his death, at the hands of Satan no less (bruising him in the heel) then dying mankind would be restored, then you have the foundation for several mysteries mythologies right there. It's the SAME story...but it came from Noah originally. Jesus was the original sun god, Mithras is a pagan counterpart. Jesus only came to the earth to be human in 2BCE, but he was a god in heaven before the earth was created.
Underlying astroligical symbolism behind our religious and governmental institutions, such as the two fish of Christianity representing the Age of Pices.
What secrets and mysticisms some people take advantage of is not surprising. To connect any secretive or grand scheme to the universe or some ancient prophecy would be the least one would think of doing.
How sun worship of the pagans was transformed into "Son" worship of today's Christians and.....and this is the good part........the far-reaching impact Freemasons have had throughout history on our society and our belief systems. As well as the origins of the Freemasons and learn to decode occult symbols in order to gain a greater understanding of their influence on world finance.
Well you make a good point here. Christianity did borrow a lot from paganism but the Catholic Church's worship the "Son" in the trinity God and the worship of the "Madonna and son" or the "woman and her seed" (the original Satan) in the form of the beautiful Mary who is now a goddess and clearly borrowed from the Mother Goddesses of paganism, is how paganism has corrupted the original church and that was PROPHESIED that the "mystery" of this apostasy would take over and true church. But there is a difference between the Biblical references of Jesus as that of the Catholic Church with all it's pagan holidays including celebrating Christmas and all that. But you can't attach what paganized Christianity does with what the Bible outlines--there is a difference.
Here are the tapes I'm refering to:
Thanks. My estimation is that we are going to see an ABUNDANCE of information about the Freemasons in the near future because "Babylon the Great" who rides the back of the "scarlet-colored wild beast" (the UN) has to be destroyed by the UN soon (well, eventually). I figure the best and probably only way they can do that, which also involves confiscating all their money, is to criminalize the Freemasons and the Illuminati. Things the UN allowed and tolerated will not go over as well anymore. Part of the burning her with fire means exposing all her evils and once criminalized, even if it's just drug trafficking, the UN can "legally" confiscate all their vast financial holdings and the world won't blink. But they have to properly pre-propagandize the public about the Illuminati and the Freemasons so that they will be exposed and seen as criminals so that when the UN moves on them they can be legally effective. Otherwise, what they do in the closet would just stay there. So when I see more "informed" persons learning about the Freemasonry influence it just confirms for me that the UN has already planned on a sting operation against the Illuminati and the money industrialists controlled by Jewish-led Freemasonry.
This must happen...and it is happening. The more you see in the open public about the Freemasons from now on, therefore, the closer we are to Armageddon.
But here's something that's interesting. There is going to be a huge COUP by the UN and in the process of destroying Babylon the Great, which might be connected integrally to the so-called "industrial war machine", the three leading powers, Japan (Lion), Russia (the Bear) and the US and allies (Leopard) will surrender their soverienty to the UN!!
Now who would believe that? We know the UN is acting as it's own authority right now, but will the US ever give its power up along with RUSSIA and JAPAN? Not under these circumstances. BUT, if there is a planned COUP, say by the CIA who might be influenced by the Freemasons let's speculate, then the UN army might be the only army that could stop it. Or if there is some international market crash of some sort thought to be institated by the Illuminati in their bid to rule the world, then the US might not have any choice but to surrender sovereignty to the UN in order to stabilize the world economy and dethrone the monetary position of the Illuminati right now.
But you can't do this overnight. It has to be planned and orchestrated and the appropriate propaganda sent out first. So when you start seeing the propaganda and Freemasonry becomes a household word, then it's almost assured it's a movement to confiscate the funds of the money industrials but they need to expose their sins first.
At any rate, the UN is already in place as a governing body with its own army, all it's needs is an international money crisis to get full control over the world.
Per the Bible, this control would be in place for only one year and 3 months though, before one could expect the millennium to begin...that's all the time the Bible gives the superpowers after Babylon the Great (the fourth beast) falls! So it's kinda chilling to encounter Freemasonry "esposes" like this as often as I have been. It's the beginning of the real END!
Thanks, again, for the references!!! Guess I've got my reading cut out for me.
I'm glad I'm an inconspicuous unknown!!! Things are about to get ugly!!!
Thanks, again!
JCanon
