Was the Holy Spirit part of Jesus or a force controlled by God

shotgun

The account where the woman with the blood flow touched Jesus outer garment and was cured interests me.

Jesus felt the power leave him and looked to see who touched him. If the holy spirit was an active force seperate and controlled by God why would Jesus have felt a power drain.

If you consider most of Jesus healings to be a placebo which only healed people who believed like present day faith healers do this account sheds a different perspective.

If you believe Jesus was God and all powerful it seems strange that he would notice the insignicant power needed to stop a flow of blood considering the awesome displays of power which never seemed to bother him(calming a storm, replacing a severed ear, raising the dead, feeding thousands with basically nothing..although my mom could do that too)

What are your thoughts...Yes you too Mr Canon...not too long though...OK...remember KISS

stillajwexelder

mmm -- you could argue this is part of the series on troubling trinity verses part x -- so hooberus, littletoe et al would be interested -- it was obviously controlled by both which would make Jesus divine which would argue for the Trinity -- which I disbelive with a great passion

shotgun

I'll check out the trinity thread..I hadn't bothered because I thought it was a mystery.

JCanon

If you believe Jesus was God and all powerful it seems strange that he would notice the insignicant power needed to stop a flow of blood considering the awesome displays of power which never seemed to bother him(calming a storm, replacing a severed ear, raising the dead, feeding thousands with basically nothing..although my mom could do that too)
What are your thoughts...Yes you too Mr Canon...not too long though...OK...remember KISS

Hi. This is interesting for sure. But I'd basically say we are just getting some bits of the picture that could be very specific. I wouldn't know if Jesus was not always aware of the force of power occurring and we can speculate on likely many scenarios that would fit the text. But not knowing, we can't really superimpose what WE THINK should have been the case that doesn't fit.... Sometimes things are "confusing" or even "contradictory" simply based upon lack of imagination or information. If I said someone was hovering 50 feet above me for 30 minutes one might presume I was crazy if I left out it was a policeman in a helicopter...?? The scriptures says he felt the power go out of him, it didn't say he was drained.

On the other note, I do believe that the "holy spirit" sort of works "automatically". It's not a person per se, but it performs logical activities based upon it's programming; and that must have been part of the program. Jesus was just aware of it. The holy spirit is amazing. It's directable but programmable per my concept of it.

JCanon

heathen

I think for one thing the scripture proves that jesus was not omniscient because he didn't know who touched him nor did expect it . I also disagree with the trinity doctrine it becomes clear that people for a very long time have manipulated scripture in an effort to support the trinity, there are plenty of confusing scriptures in the bible .

Francois

IN my understanding, the Holy Spirit, or Infinite Spirit as some call it, is the third person of the Trinity. As such, it is obviously a personal being and controls itself completely and totally not being controlled by anyone else, not even God. If we mortals, being made just a little lower than angles, have soverign free will with which even the Gods do not interfere, how much more so the Infinite Spirit?

The Master had his own personal force and free will controlled only by himself, just as each and every one of us do. Otherwise what is the meaning or use of free will in the first place? Additionally, I don't for a moment believe that the Master is the second person of the Trinity.

I do think that part of our problem today consists in confusion of identity, especially in that we confuse the Bronze Age tribal God Yaweh with the Universal Father introduced by The Master which contributes much to our inability to move forward spiritually and to understand some very basic spiritual truths.

francois

heathen

Francois --- I think it interesting that you totally discredit the old testament God but still think jesus was the word of God . The old testament God was the one that made the promise that the messiah would be left in charge of all things in heaven and earth . To refuse to acknowlege that jesus was doing the will of YHWH is to ignore some very profound scripture.

Deputy Dog

Shotgun

If you believe Jesus was God and all powerful it seems strange that he would notice the insignicant power needed to stop a flow of blood considering the awesome displays of power which never seemed to bother him(calming a storm, replacing a severed ear, raising the dead, feeding thousands with basically nothing..although my mom could do that too)

Maybe a better question is, How much of His deity did Jesus empty himself of? Philippians 2: 5-8 "...who, although He existed in the form of God...but emptied Himself, and being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death,..."

D Dog

ignorance is strength

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.

Nicene Creed

LittleToe

Still:
I'm interested, but only just stumbled across this thread

A quick question - where do we find that Jesus didn't know who touched him? He asks who touched him, but it's never stated that he didn't know. Interstingly all three of the synoptic gospels relate the account in a subtly different way. John doesn't record it at all, aince it appears the other accounts do a good enough job.

This is just one of those verses that show's the Holy Spirit's autonomy, IMHO.

The Nicean Creed puts it succinctly (see above).

Was the Holy Spirit part of Jesus or a force controlled by God

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