Art vs. Pornography

by Aztec 35 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Eric

  Aztec,

  First of all, "naturist" or "nudist" photos of children have long been a staple in the pornographic diet of pedophilic pervos. And, just as photos of men taken at a nudist camp would do nothing for me, similar photos of women could well go (ahem) a long way.

  And how else does the pedophilic pervo use this type of material? As a way to gain a wedge of confidence with children he/she may come into contact with, of course. As in, "See, lots of kids get photographed naked. Nothing wrong with it."

  So, some questions about what you've been asked to frame, along with my utterly fallible opinion expressed in terms of my personal alarm bell.

  Are they solely pictures of the family's children? Alarm begins chiming.

  Or are there other family members presented, including great Aunt Winona? Alarm bell dims.

  All child photos, including other peoples kids? Alarm bell and siren.

  Action photos of nude children at play, with innocent, inadvertent exposure? Alarm, siren, klaxon.

  Family photos of dinner at the picnic table, but nude? Alarm bell dims.

  Photos of a nudist children's beauty contest? Alarm, siren, klaxon, flashing lights.

  ------------

  I recently had a long conversation with my youngest brother about the "Fifth Estate" and "Panorama" television programs that deal with the child abuse problem in the JW's. He is a young elder, and he rejects the idea that the two witness rule was set-up to enable pedophile pervos, and I'll admit that even I have a tough time accepting that. But I did get him to accept that the two witness rule could be exploited by a pedophile perv, and to be on a lookout for this type of abuse.

  As I told him, and I humbly suggest to you as you frame these prints, think like a predator. Try to imagine the worst possible exploitation these photos could be used for, and whether the body of work falls into some sort of questionable theme as a whole.

  I sincerely hope you can evaluate them as innocent family photos, and that you can be confident nothing untoward the best interests of children in the photos or other children who may view them is intended.

  Eric
• 

  teejay

  Azzy,
  
  I've never heard of a "slave bat" and don't know what one is (hey... I'm from Arkansas - what can I say?) so I can't comment on that.
  
  As far as the specific scenario you outline with the photos you're framing (had to frame?), I doubt I'd have any problem at all if it had to do with my job. The opinion I expressed concerning the photographing and displaying of children deals with kids put on display in the general sense and how I feel about it personally. And I might add: that opinion is one I have for me and no one else. If I thought laws were being broken, of course I wouldn't hesitate to get in touch with the proper authorities. Outside of that, though, people rightly have the freedom to do whatever they want.
  
  Kids brought up in nudist camps are no different than kids everywhere else, IMO. The only difference between them and "regular" kids is that nudist kids never learn shame about their bodies, which I think is terribly healthy in the long run. I think they go through life with a totally healthy indifference about physical appearance and the idea of being photographed doesn't faze them in the least, any more than clothed children are put off by a camera. But a child's reaction, to me, is secondary in importance... which is part of my point. What do kids know about adult perceptions or about the horrible people that live out in the real world? That's why they need caring adults to look out for them until they come of age.
  
  I understand the mindset that their parents have, though. Personally, there's a nudist in me that occasionally comes out but not as much now that I have a little kid running around. Generally speaking, I have zero inhibitions when it comes to nudity and if conditions were a little different, I wouldn't have any problem visiting or even living in a nudist camp myself. The mindset of nudist parents is, like their children's, extremely healthy, IMO. So, I can see the innocence in them simply wanting to have pictures of their kids like every other parent wants of *their* kid. I don't believe there's any funny business going on at all.
  
  The problem comes when the photos get into the hands of people who are NOT so well-adjusted mentally.
  
  
  tj ~ who knows exactly how he feels about this but is having a hard time putting it into words
• 

  Panda

  Aztec, If the parents think it's okay to take nude photos of 7 year olds because they were raised as nudists; then is it also okay to have photos of the adults in the family (nude)? And if no why not? And eventually those kids will be teenagers who will be deadly embarrassed by those photos. I wouldn't do that to my kid. And don't think just because it's the parents that it can't be wrong. And I don't know any nudists who want someone taking photos of them nude to frame and put up on the wall.

  But then there was the story of the woman who took photos of her nieces jumping on a bed in their underwear and the CPS came and took the kids away from the mother. After a court battle the kids were given back but good grief what a mess!
• 

  Panda

  Oh and one other thing. Since when , except Calvin Klein ad's, are nude kids ever ever art? I cannot think of one place where I've seen art as nude kids... this seems strange.
• 

  ashitaka

  I wouldn't worry too much about it. If these pictures are comparable to say, National Geographic photos, that is, nude or semi nude kids in a natural environment that is not sexual in any way, then I don't see a problem, though the whole concept of naked kids on my wall as art skeeves me out a bit.

  Still, I know that my wife was one of those kids who always took off their clothes, all the way up until 7 years old. She just hated having clothes on. All of the kids would take baths together when they were younger than 7. And the mother took photos of the kids playing in the bubble bath. (You can't see any naughtiness). Creepy to me, but my family was the 'wear clothes at all times' type. I swear, we barely saw flesh on each other past diaper age. It was just creepy to us.

  ash
• 

  Stacy Smith

  My parents took some pictures of me when I was pretty young and it was harmless. But at about age 12 I felt really weird about those old pics and I asked them to burn them. Mom wasn't happy but she did burn them. It just seemed weird.

  I've been to a nudist camp. While guys aren't walking around aroused there is a lot of checking out of the women. If a person was turned on by children I'm sure they would be checking out the kids.

  I believe the law in CA states that it's not considered porn if a naked photo of a child is a member of the immediate family.

  For those members of Nambla a naked photo of a little boy would be softcore porn at the least. So I would say that what is art to one person is just another excuse to masturbate to someone else.
• 

  Eric

  I cannot think of one place where I've seen art as nude kids... this seems strange.

  The photography of David Hamilton has been disputed as art or pornography publicly, privately, in the boardrooms of art galleries and by their benefactors, by booksellers large and small, and in the courtroom both by complainants against and as an example of anti-child pornography laws gone too far.

  Personally, I'd like it if the courts would consider the worst possible case of exploitation of this material, the way a predator would use it, and weigh that against the damage caused to anyone by the absence of this particular material.

  Eric
• 

  Sam Beli

  Is this art or porn?
• 

  teejay

  IMO, Sam,
  
  The medium (paint) makes it art. If it were a photographic image of humans similarly posed, it would be porno.
  
  IMO.
• 

  LeslieV

  Hey Aztec what is the policy of the framing shop that you work at??? When do they say you can not frame a picture? I know that if you take a picture to be developed in a camera shop here in New York, if they even think that it is pornographic in nature they will not release the pictures.

  I will say that I believe that usually your initial gut reaction is many times accurate. Is your gut saying there is something that is not right about this? If it is, why not talk to the person that owns the frame shop and get their feelings on it. Just a thought...hope all is well with you and your son.

  Leslie