TO: You Know (He's Back)!

by Amazing 21 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi there old You Know: I figured that when H20 went down and I did not see you, that you have no where else to go. But, alas! you have followed us truth seekers to the JWD forum so you can continue your unique education, unlike that old babylonish church you call the Watch Tower Society.

    IN my post on C-14 you state: ""According to their wish this fact escapes their notice, that there was an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water..." That pretty much explains the rational of your entire argument; that as a ridiculer of Christ's presence, it is your wish to blind yourself, and others, to the fact that Jehovah once destroyed an ancient world;"

    I am not sure if your remarks were addressed to me as the post originator, or to AF who posted a response. But, once again, other than a quote from the New World Translation you provide no real discussion or debate or evidence.

    You continued, " ... even in your foolish presumption of imagining that you have some how disproven that such a thing occured."

    I am not saying that I have disproven whether there was a flood. I am saying that a global flood that covered the entire planet is not within the laws of physical science, and most importantly, the evidence shows that such a global flood did NOT happen. God would have to use his magic hand on a lot of things and hide the evidence and create new evidence so as to mislead us. Does that sound like a God of truth to you?

    You continued, "Because the Bible indicates in several places that the earth was originally shrouded with an atmospheric ocean, and as noted, such a condition would have greatly affected the amount of C-14 produced, you therefore are forced to declare that no such flood took place in order to prop up your cornball theories of human origins."

    The Bible says no such thing. Watch Tower interpretation twists what the Bible says into some cockeyed theory so they can make Biblical Myth sound as if it were fact. But, if you strip away their weird interpretations, then the allegorical aspects mixed with a regional or local flood could be possible and help teach some lessons.

    As far as C-14, the Bible says nothing about it. But you still miss the point. Even if the earth were covered with some type of water layer, it would have to be a mix of vapor and frequent condensation, which would violate the "Watch Tower's no rain before Noah theory." remember, the WTS said the people did not understand rain and that is why they laughed at Noah. Much like the way You KNow laughs at science, until the flood of facts in evidence sweeps you away.

    But, since Adam was supposedly not created until close to the end of the 6th day, about 6,027 years ago, then the time from then until Noah was comparitively very short, so humans have since Noah's time taken in C-14 at about the same levels as now. But, atmospheric C-14 is not the only way we get C-14, we also ingest it through foods. So, I am not sure, even with a dense vaporous cloud just what reduction in C-14 would be, if such a cloud canopy did indeed exist. But ...

    The human body maintains a fairly constant rate between stable C-12 and C-14 while alive. Our body passes surplus C-14 through urine and stool. So, if Adam and company were taking in less C-14, then in all likelihood they were passing less C-14 and maintaining about the same ratios as we do today.

    But, more importantly, and the major glaring point you miss is that not only does C-14 accurately help determine humans existed before 6,027 BCE, but that other methods have verified this, and even of one can, say, reduce the level of C-14 intake by 50% due to some mytholiogical water canopy, this still means that those human remains dated at 50,000 years via C-14 method, would now be only 5,730 years younger, or 44,270 years old. Why, you say?

    Remember, C-14 dating is only good for about 50,000 to 60,000 years after which its half-life is so reduced, that it is hardly measurable. So, now we have a human bone that measures 50,000 years based on a 1/1024th remaing level of C-14 to C-12. Ummm, let's see, how does this work then?

    You know says that the water canopy must have reduced the C-14 level in the human body back then by at least 50%, so that it messes up the measurement, and with less C-14 due to that canopy running interference, then the specimen appears much older than it is. Okay, let's reduce the C-14 by 50% to account for the effects of shielding from a water canopy. The half-life of C-14 is 5,730 years. So, a 50% reduction in C-14 ingested would yield one reduction in half-life, or 50,000 years measured less 5,730 years means that the specimen is now 44,270 years.

    You know says that can't be. something must be wrong here. The canopy must have reduced the C-14 by much greater margins. Okay, Yon Know. Tell us how much a mythical vapor canopy will reduce C-14 ingested by humans, and tell us what the life of C-14 levels shown in human specimens today will really yield. Come on, You KNow, do the math.

    Good to see you back buddy. - Simply Amazing.

  • Jang
    Jang

    There's an old song that goes:

    Here we go again
    la li la li la
    All good friends and jolly good company

    [8>]

    JanG

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    WOOHOO !

    At last, Sir Fred, you won't be the only 'remnant' here !

    Does this mean the 'spritual paradise' is increasing day-by-day ?

    Cheers,
    Ozzie

    Freedom is not having to wear a tie.

  • You Know
    You Know

    ***I am not sure if your remarks were addressed to me as the post originator, or to AF who posted a response. But, once again, other than a quote from the New World Translation you provide no real discussion or debate or evidence.***

    The Bible foretells the very philosophical underpinnings, if you will, for the ridiculers of Christ's presence. The uniformatarian mindset that prevades the thinking of scientists and apostates alike, is well-expressed in the apostle's words, prophetically attributed to the ridiculers who say: "Why from the days our forefathers fell asleep in death all things have continued exactly the same as from creation's beginning." So my comments were directed to all such ridiculers that embrace such a foolish notion.

    ***I am saying that a global flood that covered the entire planet is not within the laws of physical science, and most importantly, the evidence shows that such a global flood did NOT happen.***

    Nonsense. The laws of physical science apply to the world as we know it AFTER creation. The activities of God in creation are not bound by such laws, otherwise no creation would have been possible. Unless you can explain how a bumblebee flies, or how even a "simple" pollen spore came into existence and does what it does, or any of the other wonders of the living world, then you are not in a position to say what is or isn't possible or what did or didn't happen.

    ***The Bible says no such thing. Watch Tower interpretation twists what the Bible says into some cockeyed theory so they can make Biblical Myth sound as if it were fact.***

    I have to conclude that you are ignorant of basic Bible teachings and really not qualified to carry on any sort of intelligent discussion of things pertaining to the Bible.

    ***As far as C-14, the Bible says nothing about it. But you still miss the point. Even if the earth were covered with some type of water layer, it would have to be a mix of vapor and frequent condensation, which would violate the "Watch Tower's no rain before Noah theory."***

    More nonsense. The Scriptures do not say anything about a vapor canopy. In fact the Scriptures say that the "earth was standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water BY THE WORD OF GOD." Furthermore, the Hebrew word "deluge" means "heavenly ocean." An ocean is not composed of vapor is it? The word of God that caused the earth to stand out of water yet remain in the midst of water is a reference to the creative day in which Jehovah God said: "Let a dividing occur between the waters." So by a direct creation of God an ocean was suspended in the atmosphere. It is possible that such an ocean could have been a fairly narrow band of water in a sub-orbital race and that perhaps it absorbed and retained enough heat from the sun to remain liquid. The reason that such a thing is not possible to duplicate now by the known laws of physical science is for the very reason that it was a direct act of God. All such creative acts of God cannot be duplicated. That's why it is impossible to recreate any such act of creation.

    ***So, I am not sure, even with a dense vaporous cloud just what reduction in C-14 would be, if such a cloud canopy did indeed exist.***

    No such cloud existed. An atmospheric ocean did exist by God's word. That means the pre-flood world was very much different.

    ***The human body maintains a fairly constant rate between stable C-12 and C-14 while alive. Our body passes surplus C-14 through urine and stool. So, if Adam and company were taking in less C-14, then in all likelihood they were passing less C-14 and maintaining about the same ratios as we do today.***

    Fine. But there is no way of knowing if any C-14 was produced in the unique pre-flood atmosphere. In all liklihood the composition and ratio of atmospheric gases was different. Some researchers theorize that even the atmospheric pressure was greater back then which acted as a sort of hyber-baric oxygen chamber---turbocharging creatures with greater oxegen, which would account for the enormous size of some ancient creatures.

    ***You know says that the water canopy must have reduced the C-14 level in the human body back then by at least 50%***

    No. That's your figure. No one knows the composition of the pre-flood atmophere. It is possible that there was zero C-14 produced back then.

    ***You know says that can't be. something must be wrong here.***

    Something obviously is wrong. That was the point of my original post. What is wrong is the thinking of ridiculers like youself, that's what's wrong! LOL / You Know

  • betweenworlds
    betweenworlds
    It is possible that such an ocean could have been a fairly narrow band of water in a sub-orbital race and that perhaps it absorbed and retained enough heat from the sun to remain liquid. The reason that such a thing is not possible to duplicate now by the known laws of physical science is for the very reason that it was a direct act of God. All such creative acts of God cannot be duplicated. That's why it is impossible to recreate any such act of creation.

    Question? Why would God do something like this to begin with? On the off chance that he would have to smite the known world? It's impossible to recreate? Why would you want to? Why would God want to? Oh wait I know...It's a holy mystery! Nevermind, my puny brain can't comprehend it so I won't even try to figure it out, I shall from now on just accept every word written in THE BIBLE.

  • You Know
    You Know

    There's no reason to conclude that God suspended a heavenly ocean just for sole the purpose of destroying the world. Since God is love, and what he does is for the good of those that love him, the original act of creation that divided the waters above and below, must have served a good purpose. The very fact that the lifespan quickly collapsed after the flood indicates that the pre-flood world was more conducive to supporting life. Perhaps the original heavenly ocean would have gradually dissipated into space. Or, it's possible that it could have remained suspended indefinitely. The Bible doesn't reveal what Jehovah's purpose was exactly, only that "by those means the world of that ime suffered destruction when it was deluged with water." / You Know

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    You Know, You Know, You Know: You said, "The very fact that the lifespan quickly collapsed after the flood indicates that the pre-flood world was more conducive to supporting life."

    What facts are speaking of? The Bible says nothing about life spans reducing because of the flood. That is Watch Tower conjecture built on a shakey interpretation of a mythological account. But, if one starts with the notion that lifespans were reducing, then it was after the fall of Adam and Eve. As for the reduced lifespans after the flood, there is no basis to make such a conclusion as to why this happened.

    But, a pre-flood world being more "condusive" as you say is pure speculation not founded on any facts. But, how to you conclude that a loving God who saw that innocent humans born imperfect with a strike against them is then going to make the planet 'less condusive' to supporting life? What kind of God kicks people when they are down?

    Amazing

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    Amazing,

    Did you read "You know" (some call him Bobby)'s last post on the old H2O board. He admitted there are many many problems with the WTS. After reading that revealing post (and I suggest you get one of our trusted wizzards to dig it up), I believe he is a lot closer to the way you think than you may think.

    Hawk

  • You Know
    You Know

    *** The Bible says nothing about life spans reducing because of the flood.***

    That is true. Yet the circumstanscial evidence suggests that the greatly reduced lifespan was a result of the changed post-flood environment.

    ***But, a pre-flood world being more "condusive" as you say is pure speculation not founded on any facts.***

    The facts are the lifespans of those who lived before the flood that are preserved in God's word. Too, we know from the fossil record that life was much more prolific thousands of years ago. We know, for example, that at one time the entire earth was covered with vegetation and trees; that there were no deserts. That's why we find peterfied forests in the middle of deserts. And, obviously, that there was a much greater variety of plants and animals in times past. That world no longer exists because the present environment is no longer capable of supporting the kind of life that once existed on this planet.

    ***But, how to you conclude that a loving God who saw that innocent humans born imperfect with a strike against them is then going to make the planet 'less condusive' to supporting life?***

    From the standpoint of the Ever Living God, Jehovah, it matters little whether one lives 900 years or 900 days. To the God to whom a thousand years are as one day it is a difference of a few hours at most. Once the original humans sinned against him they lost the right of access to the tree of life, and when Adam and Eve were escorted out of the Garden of Eden, the whole race came under the condemnation of death. Of course, as Jesus & Paul noted, Jehovah did not leave himself without witness in that he did good providing even the wicked with sustenance and even some with access to an abundance. Over all a greatly reduced life span is a good thing. Can you imagine what the world would be like if this world's many tyrants lived for hundreds of years?

    ***What kind of God kicks people when they are down?***

    Jehovah has made ample provision to eradicate sin and death, as you well know. So, the correct question is: What kind of evil pervert would accuse God of doing such a thing? / You Know

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Poor, poor King-Priest Bobby. He believes that for billions of years Jehovah miraculously held up a "heavenly ocean", which even he knows enough about science to hedge and say that perhaps it was not actually suspended in the atmosphere, but was in some sort of "sub-orbital race" -- whatever that is.

    Miracles, miracles everywhere; nor any drop to drink.

    By a miracle, an ocean sits above the earth for billions of years.
    By a miracle, Bobby becomes a King.
    By a miracle, JW leaders who can barely think become "God's anointed".
    By a miracle, an organization that is indistinguishable from any other becomes God's only one.
    By a miracle, a series of mistaken chronological calculations arrives at the 'right' conclusion -- 1914.
    By a miracle, a series of false predictions made in the name of Jehovah do not a false prophet make.

    Yes, it's a miracle that anyone puts faith in "Jehovah's victorious organization" led by the Keystone Kops.

    AlanF

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