Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 8 (page 4)

LittleToe,

I'm glad you found the site. Yes, it is very interesting information.

It has opened some doors in my thinking which I am now investigating further.

I also found the articles by Hurtado and Davila, on the same subject , as equally enlightening.

All good stuff.

Dean.

Dean Porter

Hooberus,

No we cannot agree on that point for the following reasons:

1) I have already stated my position in my post that you are replying to. I have tried to spell out clearly what I
am saying but still you don't seem to grasp it. I do not mean to be cheeky but I find that you don't really
seem to read my posts properly as evidenced by you asking me questions on subjects I have already
made my position clear.

2) As LittleToe has interjected, you appear to be willing to agree to a position that undermines what the
Trinity teaches about Jesus.

3) You also appear to be agreeing to a position that you have elsewhere denied. Namely, in another thread
you argued that Jesus in Heaven is now BOTH God and Man ; not simply a Man. ( In fact you have
elsewhere stated that Jesus on Earth was a God/Man, thus you don't believe at all that Jesus is simply a
Man )

So , as I have stated before, in reading your posts I have come to the conclusion that You don't even know
what you actually believe. Your reasoning does not appear to be consistant.

Regards

Dean.

hooberus

The trinity teaches that He is both God and man. That He has two natures. The fact that the Trinity teaches that he is a human man in no way disagrees with the trinity doctrine. Would you agree with me that in the Scriptures there are three types of beings by nature.

1. uncreated God

2. spirit creatures (angels aggelos by nature, not just function)

3. humans

John the Baptist for example was a category 3 individual (human) by nature. Though he functioned as an aggelos "messenger" he still retained his human nature. The word aggelos Matthew 11 applied to him dealt with function, not nature. "For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger [Greek aggelos] before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee." Matthew 11:10

Dean, Do you believe that Jesus is currently a human man at the right hand of the Father? I ask this again because I do not understand your position from your earlier post on this page. Please for the sake of clarity give me a yes or no answer. (By human man I mean a fully human nature and not just a spirit creature that resembles a human in appearance.) I am sincerely trying to understand your position on this issue. On your first post on this page (page 2) were you saying that you believe that Jesus was a human man who was then exalted to becoming an angel? (or I am I misunderstanding your comments)? If so did did he lose his human nature? Do you believe that he is a fully human man who is also possibly an aggelos by function (similar to john the Baptist) or do you believe that he had a change of nature an is no longer a human man, but is an angel (class 2 in above example) by nature?

Dean Porter

Hooberus,

O.K. I'll try again and hopefully I can make clear to you my position.

Although you have asked specific questions and used specific phrases ; I will nonetheless answer in my own terminology; because from the questions you have phrased it is clear you have not understood me and are putting words in my mouth that I have not spoken.

With regard to nature, you mention 3 definitions. I see there being only "2" natures i.e. Divine Nature and Human Nature.

In this thread we all seem to be hung up on this question of ANGELS. This is how I see it.

What we generally refer to as Angels , are indeed divine spirit beings. However the term Angel really just means Messenger.

So Angel can simply be viewed as a Functionary title referring to the task that a messenger carries out.
Thus a human can be an Angel in the sense of being a messenger.

Therefore when talking of the divine messengers in the heavenly realms, I prefer to speak of them as "Bene ha Elohim" as this hebrew term tells us specifically what their NATURE is i.e. Sons of God or Beings of the class of Elohim.

This term then differentiates Divine Angels from any earthly Human 'angels'.

You asked me do I think Jesus was exalted to become an Angel ? Well I would say NO.

He was an 'Angel' whilst he walked this earth as a Man. Angel in the sense that he was a Messenger !

During his earthly life, I believe he was born a perfect sinless Human. I do not believe that he was a combination of Divine nature and Human nature. I don't think the scriptures say that.

As far as I read the scriptures they say he was Flesh - a Man. Not a spirit being having assumed a fleshly veneer .
I believe he was a perfect Man in exactly the sense that Adam had been created.

However, by means of his Resurrection from the dead, the Father raised him in the spirit to life as a Divine spirit being.

So whilst certain scriptures written after his death and resurrection refer to him as' The Man' Jesus this is to be understood as referrence to what he 'was'. So that whilst we understand him to be now at the Father's right hand in heaven, he is there as a Spirit being - a divine being.

In a similar, but still different way , when certain Bene Ha Elohim appeared as theophanies on earth , the bible accounts speak of them as Men or a Man. It is not saying they were literally men - it is figures of speech.

A last thought on Hebrews chapter 1.

The chapter contrasts, the 'means' by which God has spoken to mankind. The point though is that both the Angels and the Son spoken of and contrasted here are contrasted as Spokesmen.

I think the point is not a question of Nature per se but of Superiority and Rank and Importance.

Both parties are Sons of God ( by nature). Both parties are Angels ( by function) but the Son is Superior in Rank / Importance by virtue of him being the FIRSTBORN and his BEGETTAL by the Father.

I hope I have covered all the pertinant points and that my position on the matter is clearer to you.

regards

Dean.

hooberus

If he is not human, then how can he be David's son?

Jeremiah Chapter 33

15: In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
16: In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.
17: For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
18: Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
19: And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
20: Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
21: Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.

"For thy servant David's sake turn not away the face of thine anointed. The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne." Psalm 132:10-11

"Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption." Acts 2:30-31

"Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;" Romans 1:3

"Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:" 2 Timothy 2:8

hooberus

"Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself." Psalm 80:17

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Psalm 110:1

Dean Porter

Hooberus,

I was taking you at your word that you " sincerely wanted to understand my position".

But as your next post showed you were all the time trying to trap me into saying something you could attack.

At least be honest about it. Don't say something like Sincerely if you don't really mean it.

As far as the texts you have posted in response; I don't need to comment on them further.

I have clearly pointed out what I believe, with reasoning and referrences. If you still want to TWIST what I have stated , then be my guest. If you want to catch me out on a point , then just be UPFRONT about it.

I post here so as to try and LEARN and to try and EDUCATE. I'm not here to play games.

Dean.

JT

It's all bullshit.
B.

I have to agree with this poster, this is a perfect example of why religion is a JOKE- something as simple as "Who your Damn Daddy Is" requires a degree in Greek, latin and Hebrew- one would think that a god of order could clearly ID who he is, why is it that folks know that Stealing the guys BMW next door is wrong and yet ID if jesus is god or not has not been settled in 1000's of years to a person using critical thinking one should conclude in my view that something is wrong when you can't even ID something as simple as WHO YOUR DADDY IS

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 8

logansrun

Dean Porter

Dean Porter

hooberus

Dean Porter

hooberus

hooberus

Dean Porter

JT

Share this