News and Iraq

by Yerusalyim 20 Replies latest social current

• 

  Yerusalyim

  OK, this is me on Iraq again...I'm aggravated.

  Why isn't the press reporting all the progress being made over there? Sure...death and destruction sales newspapers...but the media is now shaping the news.

  Progress IS indeed being made in Iraq...yet the mainstream press...and politicians like Senator "Swimmer" Kennedy ignore these facts. Today Kennedy called the Policy in Iraq "failed." I'm curious as to how he has determined that. He hasn't BEEN to Iraq. Most of the Big Names that have actually went and visited come back telling how much progress has been made. Baghdad isn't suffering low electricity output because of sabatoge or war damage, but because Saddam didn't keep the equipment up. We are indeed rebuilding the infrastructure.

  All polls conducted in Iraq show the overwhelming vast majority of Iraqis supporting the US. They don't want the UN...the UN to their minds...allowed Saddam to remain in power. They don't want France...France helped Saddam remain in power. They want the US there.

  So, we have Swimmer Kennedy calling the Policy failed...encouraging the terrorists and endangering american lives...and Iraqi lives...we have the press ignoring all the progress being made...like the fact that over 40,000 Iraqi police are now on duty. ETC ETC ETC

  The main stream press keeps reporting that Bush came away empty handed from the UN this week, yet, The French have said they won't stand in our way with their veto, The US and Germany are making up, and Russian President Putin is on his way here so the he and Bush can bury the hatchet. Much was made in the press and now by politicians like Dean and Kennedy that France, Germany, and Russia oppossed the war, and that the war was about oil...neither they nor the press mention that France Russia and Germany have 120 BILLION reasons to have oppossed the removal of Saddam. The accusation is that the war was about oil, which we all know is patently false...the OPPOSITION to the war from these three countries was due to loans that they were/are afraid won't be repaid because of the removal of Saddam.

  Let's start supporting the rebuilding effort. Whatever happened to the phrase "loyal" opposition.
• 

  shamus

  Jeru,

  I really enjoy your posts on this forum. I really really do, so I don't want you to get me wrong.... I also don't want to upset you and get you pissed off at me, either. So this is not what this post is about. I hope that we can can exchange ideas and not get upset with each other... there are too many flame wars as there is.

  I don't support anything that is going on over there. It upsets me greatly when I see the news reports and Iraqi's are pissed off beyond no end that Americans are still in Iraq. THEY are the ones who are pissed off more than anyone, and are not going to let Americans do anything without a fight...

  They emptied the prisons, (all of them) releasing murderers into the streets, along with innocent Iraqi's..

  They accidentally killed innocent people.

  They are being seen as occupiers of they're country....

  Things are not going to get any better. And I have no solutions. I have not ever supported the war, and feel that this is just going to be another Veitnam here... and it clearly is appearing so.

  Anyhow, feel free to disagree with me, and I will discuss it. I hope (and yell at me if I start doing it) that this does not turn into a flame war, esp. with anyone else! It would be nice to discuss this like adults... in case anyone gets too heated.

  Anyhoo, is there any good news over there? I only hear the bad.... and, as far as I know, the bad far outweighs the good. Saddam is still running about, after all.
• 

  stillajwexelder

  Here Here yerusalyim - I agree
• 

  Yerusalyim

  Shamus,

  Good honest discussion and disagreement is great. And yes...no flame wars.

  Some of the things you've said are NOT true...the overwhelming vast majority of Iraqis are Glad we took out Saddam, Glad we're there, DON'T see the US as OCCUPIERS, and have hope for the future. Most of the trouble is in the Sunni Triangle, where one would expect it to be. Check the Zogby poll I posted earlier, it backs what I'm saying.

  Another vietnam? People keep saying that, but what do they mean...there is absolutely NO comparison whatsoever...if there is, please explain in detail.

  The murders in prison...Saddam let them out before the war to curry favor and cause us trouble...most of the people released since then were political prisoners. With an estimated 70,000 Iraqi cops on the street in a month...order IS being restored...but it takes time...as it did after WW2 in Europe and Asia.

  Yes, we ACCIDENTALLY killed about 1500 civilians, a horrible part of war. So far we've found mass graves containing the bodies of 300,000 Iraqis whose only crime was...well, the Saddam Regime didn't like them. More are being found monthly...and it will go into the millions...Lets make those 1500 civilian ACCIDENTAL deaths have meaning by rebuilding Iraq so that another Saddam doesn't take over and kill another million innocent civilians.

  Saddam is indeed running about but the good news FAR outweighs the bad...we just don't get to hear it. Schools and hospitals are being rebuilt...power plants and water treatment plants too...not from war damage, but from Saddam ignoring infastructure there for over a decade...while building his lavish palaces. Kids are going to school people are starting to work...a sense of normalcy is being establish...one in which they can begin to express themselves.

  They are in line to have a Constitution within 6 months...and self rule shortly thereafter...so...where's the failure...how is it NOT getting better...how is there no good news?

  Thanks for having an open and honest debate.
• 

  shamus

  Yeru,

  Thanks for the comments. No, no flame wars here... nor am I implying that you are responsible for them, either!

  I completely disagree with you on several of your points:

  First, the Iraqi's are very glad that Saddam is no longer in power. That is an absolute given. Some do wish that he was back, but they are under 50%. Very true. The problem here is that they do not believe that it was worth it. The problem is that Iraqi's DO see the U.S. as occupiers. I watched it on television last night, where a Gallup Poll was taken, and they were overwhelmingly in agreement that Americans were occupiers, and did not like them. They wanted them out, like yesterday! They were upset because their country is currently occupied by other forces... something that anyone on earth would hate. Imagine if America was taken over by France... wouldn't you be a bit angry at them? Well, not angry but upset?

  In regards to being fully independent in 6 months, GOOD! But, where is the concrete proof? If so, do the Iraqi's know? They do not. And I know that 6 months is a pipe dream... are the Americans just going to leave with Saddam running about in the countryside? No way. He could get back in power, and the war would be worthless!

  The point that I'm making here is that Americans are being portrayed, by persons other than Americans in the middle east, as conquerors and occupiers... not very nice things to be told. I know that America is not going to occupy Iraq forever, you know it, but Iraqi's don't care about that. They want them out NOW. Remember, what other people think in other cultures and lands should far outweigh our own personal opinions.
• 

  IronGland

  I just hope we take all of their oil to pay for this.
• 

  shamus

  Irongland,

  The oil does not belong to America. It belongs to Iraq. The Iraqi's are not responsible for the Americans actions.

  They are no more responsibly financially than kids who were removed from an abusive parent and put into foster care. The government cannot take all that the child has, or take money from the child in return for "looking after" their well-being! Nor can America.
• 

  shamus

  One more thing, Irongland,

  There was no contract between America and Iraq to exchange money for their services. Therefore, they have no legal right to take .01 cent from them. Sure, they can use the money to re-build schools, infrastructure, etc. to get them started... but to pay for the war, absolutley not. That is 100 percent illegal.
• 

  Panda

  Yeru, Thanks for the positive news. Last night on Fox news two ret. military officers had just returned from Iraq. Greta VanSustern said they'd just gotten off the plane . They were enthusiastic about what they saw, and the people they spoke with in Iraq. The people are very glad SH is gone. The infrastructure in the north is restored but needs improvement since the previous gov't shared nothing --- nothing with the people. In the south the coalition is having difficulty re-establishing the grid, but the point is that this project too will be successfully completed.

  They showed some film and that film included men who miss SH. Imagine showing 2 sides of the coin and not one. Imagine giving your opposition a chance to speak. WHy because in America everyone gets to speak their mind and not get tortured for it.

  Politicians make me sick. Most are men who have never had a real job. Swimmer Kenedy needs to quit reading polls and start caring about individuals ... oh wait if he did that, a certain family might still have their daughter alive. Now if you want to talk about innocents being murdered there's a good one.

  We need to support the young Americans in Iraq and Afganistan. They are at the fore front of establishing a free society with 2 sides debating issues of their nation. Imagine America not as the only free nation but one of many.

  Why do the Saudis continue to support terrorists? Because they despise the freedom their citizens would be granted in a democratic society.

  Hey buds, you try shopping wearing a g**d** burqa. Or apologizing to your husband because you birthed a girl child. Go live somewhere and find out what real life is like around the rest of the globe.

  Sheeesh --- peace and love, Panda
• 

  IronGland

  The oil does not belong to America. It belongs to Iraq.

  Yes. that why I said I hope we take their oil to pay for this.

  There was no contract between America and Iraq to exchange money for their services. Therefore, they have no legal right to take .01 cent from them. Sure, they can use the money to re-build schools, infrastructure, etc. to get them started... but to pay for the war, absolutley not. That is 100 percent illegal.

  We didn't have a 'legal right' to invade either. For all the talk of international law and such, the reality is that the winner makes the rules. Before the war, they were allowed to sell oil for food and other essentials, correct? So the wells were not at full production. They wouldn't have made anything on it anyway if we didn't invade. So any production in addition to what they were producing pre-war should be confiscated by the US to pay for the war.

  For the record, I was not really in favor of the invasion, but it's done. If we're gonna be imperial, lets at least be ruthless about it. Whats the fun in an invasion if you can't do some pillaging to enrich the homeland?