More evidence for the Flood

by Derrick 11 Replies latest jw friends

  • Derrick
    Derrick

    You might want to consider an interesting article titled Prehistoric Beaches Evidence for the Flood (December 27, 1999) on the web site AchieveBalance.com in considering the global flood in Noah's day.

    The article is at the following link:

    http://www.achievebalance.com/think/flood.htm

    A snippet from the article shows how science is getting closer to the truth:

      ``Geological studies of the Black Sea basin off the coast of Turkey led two Columbia University geologists, William Ryan and Walter Pitman, to theorize that they may have discovered the geological event that spawned the flood narrative in the book of Genesis.

      According to the theory, 7,500 years ago, the Black Sea was a freshwater lake. Then, at the end of the last Ice Age, water levels in the Mediterranean rose. Eventually, the water poured over the Bosporus Strait at a volume 200 times that of Niagara Falls, inundating an area the size of the state of Florida. This flood created the Black Sea as we know it today, and Pitman and Ryan believe it is the historical basis for the biblical flood narrative.

      The National Geographic Society wanted to find out if the geologists were correct. They approached Robert Ballard, the oceanographer who was the first man to explore the wreck of the ?Titanic,? about leading the expedition.

      Ballard was initially skeptical. He compared the project to, in his words, "searching for arks on mountaintops" - the domain of religious fanatics, not scientists.

      Ballard eventually agreed to lead the expedition. When sonar detected the beach at the bottom of the Black Sea, Ballard knew they were on the right track. Then, just weeks ago, came the most exciting discovery to date: the remains of freshwater mollusks on that beach - proof that Pitman and Ryan were right about a prehistoric flood.''

    This thought provoking article ends by observing "the only thing that stands between an archaeologist and the truth is an open mind." Do you possess an open mind?

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Apparently a fact slipped right through that hole in your mind. This is concerning flooding from the mediterranean into an inland lake. Nothing compared to noah's flood. Or, are you suggesting that noah floated around the black sea for a while, w a boatload of livestock. Geez, why didn't he move a hundred miles or so?

    SS

    Ps, i considered this exact subject when it came out a few years ago

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Wonderful, the smell of decaying brains once again spoils my morning coffee.

    The title of this thread is 'More evidence for the Flood'.

    Note the use of the capital letter in Flood. This makes it a specific article, i.e., the Biblical Flood.

    This, for the reason is says it is in the Bible, is thought by most people to refer to a (mythical) GLOBAL flood; thus the neccesity of spending 100 years building a boat (and let's not even get into a analysis of the inadequacy of the described design for its supposed purpose). If it were a local flood, even a biggie, then getting the hell out of the way would be quite adequate for survival, and the animals could look after themselves.

    So, we have a thread that implicity claims to have evidence for the Global Flood. Does it? Does it my hairy arse; the information is described as an event that;

    that spawned the flood narrative

    (note the lower case)

    ... and if further described.

    ... the end of the last Ice Age, water levels in the Mediterranean rose. Eventually, the water poured over the Bosporus Strait at a volume 200 times that of Niagara Falls, inundating an area the size of the state of Florida. This flood created the Black Sea as we know it today, and Pitman and Ryan believe it is the historical basis for the biblical flood narrative.

    Now, Derrick, either you are unaware you are being decietful in the manner in which you present this data, or you are quite aware of the false impression that could result from the way it is presented.

    Either way it is a joke.

  • Dansk
    Dansk
    Does it? Does it my hairy arse;

    LOL@Abaddon

    You all may find the following of interest (the author is John Croft):

    "A common statement in support of the flood is that large areas of
    the earth have been flooded.

    The truth is, most areas of the Earth have been under water at one time or
    another. All sedimentary rocks (with the possible exception of
    Aeolian Sandstone), have been formed as deposition layers under
    water. This would indicate that everywhere a sedimentary rock has
    been located that area was, at that time under water. The trouble
    comes from the use of the word "flood" which is usually taken to
    mean "a rapid and disastrous catastrophe". Evidence shown on the
    margins of the formation of these sedimentary rocks show that the
    changes in sea levels have been very slow - in the order usually of
    millimetres per year. Hardly discernible for anything except over
    geological timescales.

    It used to be thought that there were 4 great Pleistocene
    Glacial Periods

    European Name/American Name rough time period
    Gunz/Nebraskan Glacial
    Cromer/Afton Interglacial
    Mindel/Kansan Glacial
    Holstein(Hoxnian)/Yarmouth Interglacial
    Riss/Illinoian Glacial 180-130,000 years ago
    Eemian/Sangamon interglacial 130-75,000 years ago
    Wurm/Wisconsan Glacial 75-10,000 years ago
    Flandrian/Recent Interglacial 10,000 to present

    To this sequence in Europe two earlier periods have been added, the
    Donau and the Bibber.

    Generally Interglacial periods have been periods in which sea levels
    have risen, glacial periods are those when they have fallen. Again,
    to speak of "flooding" is a misnomer. These sea level rises have
    been on the order of 130-140 metres over 5-7,000 years, giving an
    annual rise of 26 metres a millennium (i.e. 2.6 centimetres per year -
    hardly "catastrophic" - even snails could save themselves at that
    pace)!

    To find an idea of the areas that would have been effected by
    interglacial periods one needs to get a good map of the
    world's oceans and look at all those areas where sealevels are above -
    130 to -140 metres below sea level today. These would have been
    areas *above* sea level during one of the Ice Age peaks.

    What you find is, for instance, the Adriatic would have been dry land,
    Britain would have been joined on to the mainland (and Ireland joined
    to Britain), with the whole of the North Sea being above water.
    Equally the "Sunda Shelf" joining Borneo, Java, Sumatra and Mainland
    South East Asia would have been above sea level during the glacial
    period. Equally the "Sahul Shelf" joining Australia and Papua New
    Guinea, and the Bass Shelf, joining Tasmania to Australia would have
    been dry land. The Florida Keys too would have been dry and a large
    area off Yucatan in Central America.

    These sea level rises could scarcely have generated stories
    of "catastrophic floods" of the Noahite variety. There are a few exceptions to this trend.

    These occur when there are seas with narrow openings to an ocean. There are a number
    of these around the world. The classic one is of course the
    Mediterranean, in which for instance the Straits of Gibraltar act as
    a "dam wall". Subsequent evaporation of the enclosed sea behind the
    wall then sees the sea reduced to a brakish salt-lake. The Bab el
    Mundib between Yemen and the Afar Triangle in Eritrea is another such
    dam-wall, as is the Bosphorus and the Straits of Hormuz across the
    Persian Gulf. This is what led Pitman and Ryan to suggest a rapid
    flood of the Black Sea some 5,600 BCE.

    One may also like to get Steven Oppenheimer's book "East of
    Eden" which has a series of interesting charts showing sea level
    rises in various locations around the world. Unfortunately while I
    mentioned a sea level rise of 130-140 metres as a general rule, when
    you consult these graphs there is a general rule which needs to be
    taken into account.

    Firstly the graphs are not smooth curves. It appears that there were
    three more rapid rises, followed by periods of thousands of years of
    stability, before another rapid rise. It has been shown that these
    periods of stability are associated with a general worsening of the
    weather where glacial conditions can in fact seem to return. For
    instance the Wurm glaxial maximum was 18,000 BCE. There was a
    general warming trend in which sea levels rose by about 40 metres
    until 10,000 BCE, during the "Younger Dryas" when for a while it
    looked like the Ice Age was returning. The Gulf Stream, which had
    been reaching Iceland now reached no further than Portugal. In fact
    in some areas, sea levels fell for a while.

    Secondly, because 1 cubic metre of water weighs a tonne, loading the
    surface with 140 tonnes per square metre can cause isostatic
    movements of the Earth's crust. There is similar corresponding
    releases in pressure associated with the removal of the continental
    glacial burden. Thus today, for instance Norway and Sweden are
    rising (from the disappearance of the Glaciers), whilst Holland and
    East Anglia are falling (from the weight of the North Sea on the
    crust - and to counter the compensating rise over Scandinavia and
    Scotland!)

    Thirdly you need to take into account Glacial Meltwater. For
    example, Northern Hemisphere Glaciers melt at their southern edge.
    This is fine when we have rivers running south to cart all the
    Meltwater away, but there are at least four areas where this is not
    true. The first is the Mackenzie River in Canada. During the Ice
    Age, Meltwater would have accumulated to form a huge Meltwater Lake -
    bigger by far than the current Great Lakes (Scientists call it Lake
    Agassiz after the Swiss scientist who discovered the Ice Ages).
    Eventually as the Ice Water Melted, the dam wall disappeared and Lake
    Agassiz drained northwards - the Great and Lesser Bear Lakes are all
    that survives. A similar thing happened with Hudson's Bay. The
    Connection across the mouth of the Hudsons Bay with Labrador, Baffin
    Island and the NW Territorias created a dam wall for a huge inland
    meltwater lake. Eventually as the Ice-plug melted and began to foat,
    suddenly the flood of cold Ice Water rushed into the North Atlantic
    displacing the guld stream to the south and precipitating the shift
    in the Global Conveyor southwards (with the Gulf Stream sinking below
    Portugal) precipitating the Younger Dryas. Similarly the melting of
    glaciers as a result of Global Warming due to Greenhouse Gas
    accumulation could achieve the same today. Since the Gulf Stream
    provides 30% of Western Europe's summer warmth - it will make Britain
    look like Siberia)

    The Baltic is another example of the same thing. 17,000 years ago
    the Scandinavian ice sheet withdrew from the lowlands of northern
    Germany and the Baltic region and the melted snow and ice rose
    between the mountains in the south and in the north. About 7000 years
    later so much water was collected in the huge reservoir that it was
    sizeably higher than the global sea level in that time. The
    difference of the sea levels of 20, 30 or even more meters was
    removed as the Baltic reservoir could adjust its sea level to that of
    the North Sea through an opening in the middle of Sweden. Because of
    this connection to the North Sea salt water and subsequently the
    shell Yoldia arctica could get into the former reservoir. According
    to this shell this state of development of the Baltic Sea is called
    Yoldia Sea. In the following time the Scandinavian ice began to melt
    more and more, the pressure on northern Europe caused by the ice (it
    was equal to the pressure caused by mountains with a height of more
    than 1000 meters) grew smaller.

    As a consequence of this smaller pressure an elevation of Scandinavia
    closed the connection between Yoldia Sea and North Sea.The Baltic Sea
    became fresher again and the snail Ancylus fluviatilis, living in
    fresh water gave the inland lake its name Ancylus Sea. The rise of
    the sea level let water get to the, till then continental region of
    the western Baltic Sea and created a new connection to the North Sea
    through the belts, which can still be proved today on the ground of
    the Baltic Sea. After the adjustment of the sea levels about 7,000
    years ago salt water could flow into the Baltic Sea again.
    A typical snail in this period was Littorina littorea, according to
    which this phase of development is called Littorina Sea. About 3,000
    years later the rise of the Danish islands started to increase an the
    ground of the sea was lifted in the region of the belts and sounds,
    so that the amount of exchanged water decreased. The salt content
    reduced and the Baltic Sea became an sea with brackish water. The
    index fossil of this period is the snail Limnaea ovata and because of
    that this phase is called Limnaea Sea. 4,000 years ago the Baltic Sea
    reached today's coasts. Since 2,500 years the Baltic Sea is called
    Mya Sea, named after the Sand Gaper Shell Mya arenaria.

    Also in Siberia, all the Rivers run northwards. 17,000 years ago
    when Ice Began to Melt the northward draining rivers (Ob, Lena,
    Yemesei) were dammed and a huge inland lake formed over Western
    Siberia. Eventually this formed a channel into the Aral Sea, which
    in turn over filled its basin draining into the Caspian, which also
    flooded, particularly over the shallow northern end into the Volga
    Don gap and then into the Black Sea which as the Euxine Lake was much
    larger than it is today. The eventual melting of the Ice Plug on the
    northwards running rivers suddenly drained all the water of the West
    Siberian lake, causing the Aral Sea and the Caspian Sea to shrink in
    size."

    Dansk

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Dansk;

    I know the general outline if not details of much of that.

    Problem is that the Bible gives a timeframe for the Flood (capital) which precludes any of the examples you give. The timeframe given also precludes a global flood because it can be demonstrated via dendrochronology that there were individual trees growing quite happily before during and after the flood with no trace of being submerged under masses of water.

    If you are saying that the Bible Flood (capital) account is probably a racial memory/myth based upon a large flood (lower case), I wouldn't object. I've no problem with the Bible being a quasi-historical account, as there is the evidence there to support it being such.

    It was precisely using evidence for small f floods to try to imply evidence for the large F Flood that I objected to (although you don't do that).

  • Dansk
    Dansk

    Abaddon,

    Sorry, I was trying to show the idea of a Biblical global Flood is erroneous - it NEVER happened.

    Dansk

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    I was wondering what was with the reverse angle; bad nights sleep on my part, should have been obvious!

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    A local flood in the region, yes. There has been previous studies and evidence to show that the Mediterranean Sea broke through the land barrier at Instanbul and flooded the Black Sea region. This event could have been caused by an earthquake, weakened geological structure, a comet hitting the Gulf of Mexico causing worldwide tsunamis, or any combination of these.

    A global flood covering all land up to the tops of the highest mountains, including Mt. Ararat (12,000 ft.) or even Mt. Everest (29,030 ft.) is simply not possible given the geological evidence we have today. The flood did not create these high mountains, but rather, they have been in existence long before humans walked the earth. There are so many problems in trying to prove a global flood, that it is a pointless exercise.

    The notion of a global flood is created by religionists. It is a fable to teach a lesson at best. The issue is not about an open mind. Rather, what was discovered according to the article you linked is nothing more than evidence of local geological changes likely caused by a flood - a local flood. Nothing there proves a global flood as claimed by fantasy religion. - Jim W.

  • donkey
  • donkey

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