The Bible can help JWs to stop judging homosexuals. Try this method.

by DATA-DOG 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    I have tried this method with great success. It's very satisfying to see either a flash of recognition or a dumbfounded look on the face of your audience. Either way, wheels may start turning.

    1) Appeal to the authority of the Bible, and make sure you audience agrees with this premise.

    2) Read Romans 8:20 from any Bible. Then ask if they believe this scripture is correct. Based on step #1, they must agree or contradict themselves.

    3) Discuss the context of the scripture in depth. What was Paul saying? Use a respected Bible commentary if you like, but drive home the meaning of the selected verse.

    I like to ask, "What makes people gay? Is it nature or nurture?" This is a great question to throw out when JWs start veering into the realm of hate-speech, which they will, inevitably. The above question stimulates discussion and its a loaded question. They simply cannot escape once they take the bait. They can walk away, but only at the risk of embarrassing themselves and bruising their ego. They are, by their own admission, the best bible students in history, so the pressure to answer correctly will usually get results.

    How could they answer, and what bearing does Romans 8:20 have on their response? Let's consider three possible answers that you may receive.

    1) Nature is the cause. 2) Nature/Nurture combo.3) The cause is unknown. #1) Nature:

    I ask, "Did God cause evil?" The person will almost always answer, "No." Then I ask, "He does allow it, correct?" A JW will answer, "Yes." Now the trap is set.

    This is where Romans 8:20 comes into play. God allowed evil for a greater good to take place at some point in the future. (According to JWism )One of the consequences of allowing evil is all manner of genetic irregularities. You can mention anything you like from Alzheimer's to Zoster, it doesn't matter, Romans 8:20 is the answer that must be accepted.

    "Do you agree that the human family has been subjected to futility?, you ask. They have no choice but agreement. Then you ask them,"Who subjected the human family to futility?" The answer is obvious! God did it! Now you strike with precision!

    "So God allowed evil for the time being, subjecting creation to futility. He must have know the possible consequences, but he knew that the greatest good would eventually come about. So if a person is gay from birth, they are gay because the conditions that conspired to alter their genetics only exist because evil was allowed, correct?" ( At this point you may need to slow down and pretend you are writing a simplified WT article.) "In other words, no evil, means no imperfection. No imperfection, means no homosexuality, would you agree?"

    They have no choice. They must agree. That's when you ask, "Then what right do any of us have to judge these people? We may not agree with what they do, but should we be participating in conversations that amount to passing judgment? What right do we have to judge someone who has been subjected to futility? When you are in a car group for service and the conversation starts to involve "gays" and how disgusting they are, what will you do? Will you leave the judgment to God?" Long moments of silence have been the usual response, followed by, "It's not our place to judge."

    Whether they answer with #1 or #2, you've got them. If they try to play dumb and go with #3, Romans 8:20 is the answer.

    Most JWs are not homophobic, in my opinion. They would rather just live and let live, especially the younger generation. They work with homosexuals on a regular basis. They laugh, they tell funny stories about what so-and-so was doing at work. They say how nice Mr. or Ms. Gay is and then relate a story. I know all this from listening to my family speak of their co-workers. Their Employer does not tolerate discrimination, so they rub elbows with homosexual people every day. They would rather not get involved in any debates, they just want to have nice relationships with their co-workers. Who wants a hostile work place? Nobody, that's who.

    As the family head, I have two choices. I can start making anti-gay comments about how God will destroy those people when I hear work stories, or I can act like nothing out the ordinary took place; thereby helping to cement what is already happening in the minds of my family, tolerance.

    If left up to the individual, many would accept homosexuals and stop judging them. They may never choose to associate with them on a personal level, but they won't judge them, or participate in hate-speech. Most JWs don't want to be put into that position and are usually relieved when you hit them with Romans 8:20. They only judge because of group pressure which is a direct result of the homophobic Governing Body.

    The indoctrination and pressure to judge must be reinforced from HQ on a constant basis or JWs will begin to normalize. We can aid that process by just taking the time to use their own holy book to reason with them. Hopefully, the next time a GB member or C.O uses hate speech, our JW loved ones will remember Romans 8:20. Maybe some cognitive dissonance will take place? It could be the beginning of their awakening. You never know what might trigger the final step. Anyway, this is a method that I have been using. Give it a try. What have you got to lose?

    DD 😇

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    I apologize for the formatting. I don't know what happened. Maybe my I-phone is gay?? LOL!!

    DD

  • Simon
    Simon

    Your arguments make some assumptions, the main one being that JWs realize people ARE gay - instead they believe people CHOSE to be gay and that changes the whole discussion.

    Having it as a choice that the person makes allows them to condemn it (and them) and not feel bad or conflicted. They may throw in something about it being imperfection caused by inherited sin that will be corrected if only the person stops their sinful ways and waits on Jehovah.

    Bible verses mean nothing to most JWs unless they have a Watchtower paragraph telling them what it means.

    (fixed up formatting but yes, your iPhone is gay or at least metrosexual - real men use android)

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    I agree on some level. You need to define some terms.

    My family members are fairly logical and believe that people don't choose to be gay, they choose to act on their "gayness." What makes them gay in the first place? That is the key.

    It works on my family. I'm sure there are some that are not open to any discussions. As you stated, it must be in a Watchtower.

    DD

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Thanks DD, I like the way your argument is structured, to lead the JW horse to water, and hopefully make him drink.

    It may of course be necessary to challenge what Simon points out, that JW's, in their totally ignorant state, may think people choose to be gay. Easily done " Do you have any Scientific proof that people choose to be gay ?".

    What is fun about this if we are able to do it with our JW family etc is that it brings them into head-on conflict with Tony Tightpants and the rest of the GB in their Homophobic attitudes.

    Thus showing that the GB is far from guided by the Bible or Holy Spirit !

  • Heaven
    Heaven

    DD, I asked my parents if they believe God to be the Creator of all things, why would he create homosexuality if he hates it so?

    They had no answer but were clearly pissed off with my question.

    Edited to add: BTW, the Bible does say God created evil in Isaiah 45:7.

  • Zoos
    Zoos
    I need to go over this AFTER coffee.
  • sparrowdown
    sparrowdown

    I'm glad you have had success with this method, but sadly and frustratingly, the JWs I have attempted to reason with have no problem whatsoever contradicting themselves, the bible or their own publications.

    I have concluded that fully indoctrinated people are contradiction-blind and inconsistency-deaf.

    Ok, so we probably all are to some degree, but dubs make an artform out of it.

  • cofty
    cofty

    I don't get that argument at all.

    As a JW I would have said that either homosexuality is a choice or that some people have a tendency towards being gay but are free not to act on that.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    More dubs that I know are accepting the scientific view that being gay is not a choice. They do believe that whether or not you pursue your gayness is a choice. Dubs aren't really united in their beliefs and thinking, so I'm sure some are more extreme.

    Perhaps my family is a bit less judgmental, but it worked. Once they claimed to believe that Jeehoober allowed wickedness, which is a JW teaching, they had to agree or contradict the Bible.

    Approach a trolley cart and try it. You'll get a good story to share at that very least!

    DD

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