Organization, not a concept established by God

by StarTrekAngel 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  StarTrekAngel

  I was dwelling over a discussion going on at JW-Archive. The old topic of the legitimacy of the GB and the concept of centralized organization. Despite what the WT claims, there are a number of examples in the new testament of actions and decisions taken without direction or even the awareness of the elders in Jerusalem.

  Despite whatever other evidence JW may have about the organizational tendencies of God (namely the creation, universe, whatever else they usually bring up), the concept of an organized nation never originated from God. If we stick to the bible references, the first time that Moises organizes the Israelites, not much later after leaving Egypt, was after he was advised by his father in law, not God. Jetro was not part of the group that left Egypt, neither he seems to have been a Jew. After Moises told him of everything God had done for the Jews, he proceeded to recognize Jehovah as the true God. Something that fits with some accounts of him being of, not only a different religion, but one that may have worshipped multiple Gods.

  In a nutshell, there is no evidence, not even as far back as the times of Moises of God ever imposing a mandate for organization. Being organized makes sense, sure. It was logic and common sense what drove the logic behind such decision but never does the bible showed that God approved of it in a manner that such requirement would be deemed necessary for deliverance or salvation, as it is portrayed today by the WT

  Does anyone have any other bible based thoughts for or against it? Taken from the perspective as if you were trying to discuss this with a JW.
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  OneEyedJoe

  When the Isrealites asked for a king, god was against it but only appointed Sol after they wouldn't let it go, if I remember correctly.

  The route I always go is that while god had a chosen nation, that nation often erred and it was the individuals following it that were usually punished, not the leadership. So regardless of whether he has or does have an organization in today's world, I'd much rather live or die by my own conscience vs blindly following an organization since that's no guarantee of salvation either.
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  joe134cd

  Job was another example. It's says he was the greatest amongst the Orientals. He wasn't a Jew nore was he associated with the Jewish nation and yet I think it says that no one could be found in the land who had the faith like Job.
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  Anakin

  Russel, the founder of the bible students wrote about this subject in Studies in the Scriptures: he was against the idea, of being an organisation, with a central college, like the papacy (vatican), like he called it.. Why? Because his experience was, that in those denominal churches, questioning a doctrine, was not practised, and punished, if someone did it....

  he spoke in volume 3, Of studies in the scriptures, about the danger the slavery of the conscience, when being member of an organisation..

  he was against the idea promoted in human religious organisations, that being a member, is essential for personal salvation, but that our names are recorded in heaven, that the most important, rather then keeping records by human organisations..

  Ask a JW, next time you meet him, if he knows that russel wasn't in favor of an human organisation, and mention that he can read it in the Studies in the Scriptures..by himself..

  if he will object, about they not use the STISm anymore, then tell them that all the missionaries who where graduated until 1989, know this fact, also the GB, because study in the scriptures where used by teachers in the Gilead missionary school until 1989, then, the use of it was being removed.. if you see the developments in JW Organisation, I can understand that according the definition russel gave about an human organisation, is classyfying them as part of Babylon the Great..

  according to the standards of their founder, they are far from being directed by God's Spirit..
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  BluesBrother

  I'd much rather live or die by my own conscience vs blindly following an organization

  The last time I tried to reason with an elder about "conscience" he was totally unable to grasp the thought that it would ever be possible for "the organization" to tell you anything that was not in harmony with God's thinking
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  OneEyedJoe

  The last time I tried to reason with an elder about "conscience" he was totally unable to grasp the thought that it would ever be possible for "the organization" to tell you anything that was not in harmony with God's thinking
  

  Yeah, that's the problem most JWs seem to have, in spite of tons of evidence in the bible of what they consider to have been god's organization of the day going astray. I even asked my wife about that at one point, and she said "this close to the end, I don't think Jehovah would let his organization stray." There's just so many holes in that - for one you have to rely upon this organization being genuine before you can conclude that we're close to the end. Furthermore it apparently removes the allowance for free will.
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  Finkelstein

  God's thinking was derived from man's thinking and imagination to serve and perhaps to fulfill out of necessity from the ignorance the ancients had to endure of the world in which they lived in.

  An appealing catalyst for social order within a civilization. ie. the ten commandments
  
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  JW_Rogue

  When asked about where to worship Jesus said it didn't matter only that you worship "in spirit and truth". To me that doesn't sound like he was saying any sort of organization was needed. He also said that "where ever two or more are gathered in my name the spirit will be there as well". The Bible doesn't show any evidence that an organization was needed for salvation
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  Beth Sarim

  There's nothing in the Bible about Organized Religion.
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  fulltimestudent

  Beth Sarim : There's nothing in the Bible about Organized Religion.

  Are you sure?

  What name would you give to the highly organised arrangements for worship in the first and second temples described in different parts of the Bible? Surely that was highly organised worship.

  Actually, most early religion revolved around worship in a temple, with priests and sacrifices. The Jewish way was not unique.

  A philosophical content seems to have arrived at a later stage. Karl Jaspers, a German philosopher, called that stage of human development, 'the Axial Age' locating it between the 8th and 3rd centuries BCE (700s to 200s BCE). In West Asia, the Greek Pre-socratic philosphers, in Central Asia, Zoroastrian thought, In India early 'Hindu' thought and Buddhism, and in East Asia (China) Confucianism, Moism (Universal Love) and Daoism were all part of the era.

  
  

  The changes in thinking led to the inclusion of 'thought systems' into religion.

  What I've written is a very simplistic description of tremendous changes in the way that humans viewed the world.