After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel). (page 2)

cofty

Belief in a spirit being referred to as Satan &/or the Devil was very much part of 1st Century Jewish thought.

Why should the verses not mean exactly what they say?

TD

The Pharisees fell from power during the time of Salome Alexandra

Jesus called Peter Satan. He called Judas Devil. Peter and Judas were Satan and Devil, human beings. The same Jesus would have called a pharisee Satan or Devil. It is clear Jesus called humans Satan/Devil. Matthew 4 does not mention that the Satan there was a spirit. From where do people get that conclusion that the tempter was a spirit? The text simply does not say. The tempter retired until another convenient time. It was pharisees who showed up at different convenient times testing Jesus. Gospels are replete with accounts of humans testing Jesus. A human said, "if you are the son of God," come off that cross. It may as well have been a human saying "if you are the son of God" turn these stones into bread. They asked him to give them manner from heaven as a sign, some slapped him and wanted him to miraculously identify the slapper. It was humans who doubted Jesus who repeatedly tempted him, asking for signs. Those who believed him however were saved. The temptation account does not say the Satan there was a spirit. Satan was Peter at one time, a human. Devil (diabolos) was Judas at another time. There is no reason why a human devil or satan would not perfectly fit the tempter in Matthew 4 and Luke 4.

quincemyles

6 minutes

"The Pharisees fell from power during the time of Salome Alexandra"

Matthew 2:1-5 shows that Chief/high priests were influential and answerable to Herodian kings who appointed them.. At the death of Christ Caiaphas the high priest who was ruler over Israel was highly influence. Matt 26:60-65. In the time of Christ, the Chief priests were rulers in Israel.

cofty

From where do people get that conclusion that the tempter was a spirit?

Matt 25:41
John 8:44
John 13:2
Eph 6:11
1Tim 3:6
Heb 2:14
Jas 4:7
1Pet 5:8
1John 3:8-10
Jude 1:9
Rev 2:10
Rev 12:9-12
Rev 20:2, 7-10

freddo

Herodian Kings could offer the kingdoms of the world? (You say that means kingdoms of Israel) Those Herodian kings which were subject to the Roman empire?

TD

Are you sure you understand the differences between the Sadducees and Pharisees including but not limited to which of the two groups got along with the Herodians? And which group did not?

quincemyles

cofty. As you know, the bible is a book within which are many books and accounts. We should be careful not to transpose thoughts from different parts of the bible. The temptation of Jesus Christ is a separate account, separate from the account of Jesus rebuking Peter to “get behind me Satan.” If we seek to understand the identity of the Satan who tempted Jesus, we should look at events related to the baptism, fasting and temptation. The mention of the Devil or Satan elsewhere in the bible may not be related to the Satan in the temptation. If we associate passages arbitrarily, then Peter would be the one who tempted Jesus because he was called Satan by Jesus. Satan mentioned in Revelation may have nothing to do with the Satan who tempted Jesus. Satan is a common noun not proper noun which is why we should not think the reference is to the same individual as the bible clearly has on numerous occasions shown that there are many satans. Satan was the righteous angel who made the donkey talk. Word satan was used in his case. Satan was sin that ruled as king through death, Satan was Peter, satan was a congregation of opposing Jews. Satan was the roman empire and so on.

Matt 25:41- "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. “NIV

The ones being thrown into that fire are human beings. Devil means slanderer, humans were and are slanderers. Angel means messenger, humans are messengers of slander at times. Those who are messengers of slander end up in the lake of fire. Devil or angel are not proper nouns so that we should restrict the terms to just some conceptual archenemy with his minions. The terms very well apply to humans. Those humans end up being thrown into the lake of fire prepared for them.

John 13:2 – The devil meant here is sin. The case of Ananias recorded at Acts 5:1-5 shows sin filling the heart and called Satan.

Heb 2:14 when read in line with Romans 8:3 indicates that the one with the means to cause death is Sin, thus sin is the devil or accuser before God.

Jas 4:7 – The Jews were to be opposed.

1Pet 5:8 –The Jews were the adversary in conjunction with the Romans.

Jude 1:9 is a quote from Zechariah 3:1-3. The passage does not say that the resister (Satan) there was a spirit. Moreover this was a vision with prophetic significance. Whether the vision in its entirety represented exact literal realities is a matter that can be explored.

Rev 2:10 should be read together with Revelation 2:9 which makes it apparent that Satan (resister) there was the synagogue of the Jews who persecuted first century Christians. No fallen angel involved.

Rev 12:9-12 – The beast with seven heads represented the Roman Empire. It is the dragon that looked old and was called Satan the devil. The seven heads represented human kings, roman emperors. The angels that the tail dragged were humans. When you compare revelation 12:4-12 with Daniel 8:9-12;12:1, you may notice that they are both about the Roman empire persecuting the first century Christians, thus fighting with Michael the archangel who was ruler over Israel in the last days of the Jewish world. Satan there was the Roman Empire.

Rev 20:2, 7-10. The Roman Empire is the Satan meant in these verses.

quincemyles

Herodian Kings could offer the kingdoms of the world? (You say that means kingdoms of Israel) Those Herodian kings which were subject to the Roman empire?

Yes. High priests were appointed the Herodian kings subject to the Roman empire. The kingdoms of the world of the Jews was the subject of interest, the world to which Jesus came and he was rejected.

cofty

Sorry I can't muster the enthusiasm to continue a debate about imaginary creatures.

After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).

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