I preached to a JW and they used the following verse against me: Phi 2:6 "who existing in the nature of God, did not consider being equal to God something to be held onto," He said that this was one of the texts that disproved the Trinity because it does not state that he was God, but that he existed in the nature of God: divine. I was like "???".
Existing in the nature of God
by ClassAvenger 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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We are all created in the image and likeness of God. It is just that Jesus let that image shine forth better than anyone in history. How can one be equal to something of which they are a small part? Yet Jesus let all the attributes of God shine forth through himself.
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Myxomatosis
Class: I preached to a JW and they used the following verse against me: Phi 2:6 "who existing in the nature of God, did not consider being equal to God something to be held onto," He said that this was one of the texts that disproved the Trinity because it does not state that he was God, but that he existed in the nature of God: divine. I was like "???".
haha
ok
thats NWT for sure
Phil 2: 6
"Who, being in VERY NATURE G-D (um the verse he quoted speaks only TO Christ's deity)
did not consider equality with G-d something
TO BE GRASPED,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant
being made in human likeness."
Class, ask him about Christ's NAME?
First ask him what a name meant to the Hebrews (hint: the full embodiment of their person)
Then ask Him which name we should be preaching...
Then direct him two verses down to Phil 2:9-11 which even in the NWT tells us what name is above all names, and what NAME Jesus (inherited)
Phil. 2:9-11
"Therefore G-d exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the NAME that IS ABOVE EVERY NAME,
that at the NAME of JESUS every knee should BOW
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the GLORY of G-d the Father."
( G-d does NOT share His glory with another)
Isaiah 48:11
"For my OWN sake, for my own sake, I do this,
How can I let myself be defamed?
I WILL NOT yield my GLORY to ANOTHER."
Psalm 29: 2
"Ascribe to the L-RD the GLORY due his NAME;
worship the L-RD in the splendor of his holiness."
Ask him where the Bible says that MICHAEL was the first creation by God?
Ask him why Jesus could tell off Satan without invoking any name other than his own, but in Jude 1:9
"But EVEN the Archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, Did NOT DARE to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said,
"The L-rd rebuke you!"
Michael doesn't have the stuff? But Jesus does?
Ask Him why after Christ's ascension and taking of power, after the resurrection, we once again find MICHAEL in revelation as a SEPARATE BEING? After being given all authority, after inheriting the name of His FATHER, He is back to Michael in 12:7?
Rev 12:7
"And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back."
as with their proofs for michael such as 1 Thess. 4:16
"For the L-rd himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of G-d..."
Ask him if the Bible ever uses descriptives (duh!)
Ask him if this means that Jesus literally also is a "trumpet call of G-d"
or a trumpet ....
Ask him if he knows anything about Biblical exegesis (cos otherwise he could give you alot of crap with the verses that speak of Jesus' humanity)
(explicit interpets implicit) -
ClassAvenger
Thanks for your answer myxomatosis, it's pretty cool how to lead them in their own Bible to a contradiction. But, it still remains unanswered what Philippians 2:6 means. Well, I am going to post several translations:
(Analytical Literal Translation) who existing in the nature of God, did not consider being equal to God something to be held onto, (American Standard Version) who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, (Bible in Basic English) To whom, though himself in the form of God, it did not seem that to take for oneself was to be like God; (Contemporary English Version) Christ was truly God. But he did not try to remain equal with God. (King James Version) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:Im reading a book called Albert Barne's Notes on the Bible, and he seems to give a pretty good explanation yet it is kind of long and I haven't finished reading the section. I'll post his comments on this verse when I finish reading it. Meanwhile, POST SOMETHING GUYS!!! Lol.
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Myxomatosis
(Analytical Literal Translation) who existing in the nature of God, did not consider being equal to God something to be held onto,
(American Standard Version) who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(Bible in Basic English) To whom, though himself in the form of God, it did not seem that to take for oneself was to be like God;
(Contemporary English Version) Christ was truly God. But he did not try to remain equal with God.
(King James Version) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Myx: Ok, here's my idea on what it means.
It means Jesus who in NATURE is G-d (who existing in the nature/form/of G-d)
He thought it was not something to be grasped or comprehended on a fundamental intellectual level... (ok?) remember G-d in Hebrew means "being OUTSIDE the World" and here was this little nondescript Hebrew man who spoke the common language Armaic (in the form of a servant) telling people that Ego Eimi Ho Ohn, Or I am the L-RD I am G-d in nature, but before you, you see this man, it is not something for you to understand, and it is not robbery (does not take away from ) the Father. It is something for you to TRUST (Who do you say I am?)
This is basically right there the Orthodox Christian description of Jesus "dual nature" being a man but fully G-d. Immanuel: G-d in the flesh.
He humbled Himself taking upon FLESH but in NATURE He remained G-d...
This is one of those things Class, for example when the JW's or someone brings up the bit where Jesus says "My Father is greater than I" not "I am" He is saying that in position, as He was in the form of a servant, that He was subject to the Father. Notice the Greek word does not denote nature, if it did and Christ said "My Father is BETTER than I" then we'd have a problem.
Ok...was that too long?
sorry! ehhh not so good, but I hope it helped anyways,
love
Myxomatosis -
Dean Porter
Myxomatosis,
I was interested to read your last post that Jesus went round telling people that he was the ego eimi ho ohn.
Can you tell me where in scripture Jesus said he was or described himself as ' ego eimi ho ohn' ?
Dean. -
Myxomatosis
Myxomatosis,
I was interested to read your last post that Jesus went round telling people that he was the ego eimi ho ohn.
Can you tell me where in scripture Jesus said he was or described himself as ' ego eimi ho ohn' ?
Dean.
What was he crucified for?
Jesus' case is unique because it wasn't because of His actions that he was being tried, but His identity, it'd be like trying an androgynous looking person as to whether they were a girl or a guy, not if they had vandalized property, or robbed a bank or something.
But to answer the question directly...the MOST explicit (if you don't mind if I also tell you that He said day by day that He was "Ego Eimi" with regards to His relation to the Father...)
Ok, so, the record in Scripture is this..
John 8:48
"The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
"At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"
"Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
"You are not yet fifty years old," The Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM" (Ego Eimi [ho ohn]) or the Hebrew "Ani Hu" which is a surrogate for the Divine name in the OT YHWH.
ei\pen aujtoi'ß #Ihsou'ß, #Amh;n ajmh;n levgw uJmi'n, pri;n #Abraa;m genevsqai ejgw; eijmiv.
ego
1. I, me, my
eimi
1. to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
before Abraham was, I exist, I happen, I am pressent, I AM.
"at this they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."
Why did they want to stone Him?
There are only five reasons for STONING in old Jewish law, though there are many more capital forms of punishment.
Jesus was not admitting adultery, which is one.
The only one that Jesus could be found guilty of the penalty for stoning at this stage is: BLASPHEMY
Not only was He claiming to know and if you will, succeed in age that of Abraham, He was claiming the name of God, and the self existence that name carries.
That is among the most explicit of Jesus claims.
Everything must be looked at from an understanding of the Jewish law and perspective. For example, another time Jesus claimed deity, which was immediately recognised by the JEWS, for there were certain things that God had laid down to Him that they should not do, and He was permitted.
John 5: 16
"So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. Jesus said to them "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself
EQUAL WITH GOD."
How many times did Jesus call YHWH "My Father"?
This was understood by the Jews perfectly.
He was making Himself equal with God by His words, actions, and claims.
Now, there is another of Jesus claims as explicit as found in John 8.
"If you do not believe that I Am, you will indeed die in your sins" (John 8:24).
Again Jesus claims the name for Himself. He doesn't say I am a Hebrew, or I am the Christ, He uses the name God gave to Moses, name of self existence.
"When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I Am and that I do nothing on my own..." (John 8:28).
Check out all the times He says "I Am" in John 8.
And last. Jesus claimed equality with God in less explicit ways quite often.
For example
say there was an emporer that was in charge of the earth
What If I said that if you did not honor ME, you did not honor Him? What If I said that everything He did I did? What If I were to say to the people standing in front of me that "everyone who sees me has seen the emporer" and that the "emporer and I are ONE" ?
What would I be saying about myself in relation to the emporer?
Ok, that's what I know anyways. Did that answer your question a bit?
love
Myxomatosis -
Dean Porter
Myxomatosis,
You have answered my question much as I thought you would.
I asked the question as I believe you were ' taking a liberty ' with the greek text. I don't believe the New Testament says anywhere in the greek text that Jesus is 'ego eimi ho ohn '.
It certainly has Jesus using the expression ' ego eimi' ,but as I suspect you actually realise only too well, that is entirely different to it referring to him as 'ego eimi ho ohn'.
You quoting of John 8.58 and adding an INTERPOLATION of ho ohn into the text is - frankly shocking !
It shows a scant disregard for TRUTH.
Did you honestly think that would convince me !
No, Jesus did not take the title " I AM " from Exodus 3:14 , because if he did the greek text in John would have to read 'ego eimi ho ohn' as it does in the Septuagent'.
Also you state that the hebrew expression Ani Hu is the equivalent of this title in hebrew. Again you are much mistaken.
Ani Hu is indeed the hebrew equivalent of the greek ego eimi, however, the hebrew expression in Exodus 3:14 is not Ani Hu but rather it is EHYEH ASHER EHYEH.
It is the word EHYEH that the greek Ho Ohn translates in the LXX. Thus the title I AM is EHYEH or Ho Ohn.
Ho Ohn does appear in the New Testament , but is not used of Jesus.
So , I think your assertion that Jesus called himself ego eimi ho ohn is wholly untenable and is not warranted by holy scripture.
You asked me to say if I think you are full of crap. Well, I don't know you and I would not want to be offensive
as I don't post on this forum to fall out with people.
However, if I restrict my comments to your scriptural exegesis then I would say it is CRAP.
KAY ! -
Myxomatosis
However, if I restrict my comments to your scriptural exegesis then I would say it is CRAP.
Myx: LOL! Thank you! But really, If I'm wrong I'm wrong. It's no problem for me. It's the way I've learned it, I suppose, and if it's incorrect, *shrugs* then I will promptly correct my error!
I think you already pretty much knew the answer before you asked me though! as you did a fantastic job on your part.
You quoting of John 8.58 and adding an INTERPOLATION of ho ohn into the text is - frankly shocking !
Myx: Oh, come come! Really, it's how I've seen it addressed before. I don't particularly know what difference ho ohn makes, but I think it completes the meaning a bit. Or something.
It shows a scant disregard for TRUTH.
Myx: Wow, you sound like a Jehovah's Witness! Don't get to bristly about this! I tried to answer your question without being deceptive or dishonest to the best of my ability! I'm dreadfully sorry you think I disrespect truth.
anyways, thank you for your educated reply, do you still hold to the Bible, because you seem defensive about my apparent filthy use of it..
Dean: So , I think your assertion that Jesus called himself ego eimi ho ohn is wholly untenable and is not warranted by holy scripture.
Myx: well, I hereby retract it.... except this forum doesn't work for me, I can't figure out how to edit, so my shocking misrepresentation of the truth is still on display to mislead all the people who frankly, couldn't care less one way or the other...
cheers then,
Myxomatosis -
Myxomatosis
Hi, I just had to address this:
Myx: I wasn't trying to convince anybody. I was answering the way I knew it. I didn't know I was being challenged to a Scriptural dual.
Anyways, I'm only 19 so go easy on me. I've really only learned jack-crap about the Bible for about 8 months.
So I'm gonna make lots of mistakes I'm sure!
I do my best though with what I know so far.
love
Myxomatosis