The pushing berween the K of N and K of S

by Kosonen 28 Replies latest jw friends

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  EasyPrompt

  "What am I saying? I mean to suggest that historicizing interpretations lead nowhere - they are more a manifestation of exegetical arbitrariness, often unwittingly taken in large part from Hyppolytus of Rome in particular."
  

  
  

  @PetrW, when Daniel recorded the angel's words, for instance that one beast stood for the king of Greece or that another one stood for a certain king, Daniel wasn't making historicized interpretations that lead to nowhere. The angel certainly wasn't manifesting exegetical arbitrariness.

  
  

  Hippolytus went beyond what is written in the same way the WTBT$ does at times, but the part of what is there that is in harmony with other scriptures (like when the angel clearly says "so-and-so means the king of Greece") or when it's clear there were four generals who inherited Alexander's kingdom, or when "the exactor went through the kingdom" for the census - these things are clear and not "exegetical arbitrariness".

  
  

  "main thrust of the interpretation in those passages in Daniel and Revelation where it talks about the 10 fingers or 10 horns and the final battles between the 10 horns (Dan 7:24 ff).

  All geographical remarks and relationships are symbolic in nature, the meaning of which derives from biblical realities: e.g., Egypt - existed in biblical times, but in eschatology, this symbol plays the role of a competitor to God's people. It is a symbol for an organized, hostile, and murderous system, the same as Sodom (see Rev. 11:8)."

  
  

  It seems that you are the one here imitating Hippolytus as far as just making stuff up that goes beyond what is in the text. The kings in chapter 11 of Daniel are not figurative of evil or symbolic of something else. The angel was explaining to Daniel about specific world powers. Revelation is in symbols. Daniel 11 is not. The accounts compliment each other.

  
  

  The visions of Revelation display the UN figuratively as a wild beast that eats up religious institutions. The second half of Daniel chapter 11 describes some of the details about how that works out.
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  vienne

  Kosonen is another who thinks he's God's modern day prophet. His posts are always cringe-worthy. They're on the same level as past Watchtower expositions. And just as worthless.
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  EasyPrompt

  Kosonen's gifts include having a heart of gold, endurance under extremely difficult circumstances, and the mildness that belongs to wisdom. There is a lot I can learn from him about those things.

  
  

  "And if I have the gift of prophecy and understand all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I do not benefit at all. Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous. It does not brag, does not get puffed up, does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails."

  
  

  He is teaching me about these things by his example in brotherly love, for which I am very thankful. To me, that is not worthless - it is priceless.💖
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  PetrW

  @EP

  when Daniel recorded the angel's words, for instance that one beast stood for the king of Greece or that another one stood for a certain king, Daniel wasn't making historicized interpretations that lead to nowhere. The angel certainly wasn't manifesting exegetical arbitrariness.
  

  PW: I think that's the biggest problem: Daniel received this information from an angel, or, it was communicated to him "in the language of angels" (1 Cor. 13:1). Technically, it was Hebrew or Aramaic, but the main problem is the method of communication. The angelic language is, in my opinion, highly symbolic speech and without "translation" into "human language", the information remains almost incomprehensible.

  My explanation is as I have already written to you: Daniel's texts do not contain any precise time points, any time milestones, just the beginning of the narrative and the information that it refers to the end. So if the angel explains, for example, in Dan 8:20-21 what the ram (Medes and Persians) and the goat (Greek) mean, he also states that the vision refers to the end of time (Dan 8:19).

  So I am faced with the problem of how to connect the events of the time of Alexander of Macedon and the year 2023...

  I see the solution to this problem in trying to put myself in the position of the angel and his understanding of time. If it is also true for him that a day is like 1000 years and 1000 years like a day, then I also assume that he can talk about the Persians or Alexander of Macedon and link the two together. No past or present in human understanding plays much of a role there. If a Persian was swinging a sword in antiquity, then a "Persian" at the end of time will be swinging, say, a laser sword. From the position of an angel, time, motive, and the fact that Satan owns the world is most likely a completely identical situation.

  Abstract and timeless thought operations with symbols that must correspond to God's intention, which we have difficulty reconstructing, exclude, in my opinion, the possibility of learning the language of angels*. The book of Daniel will remain sealed without God's help.
  

  *In my opinion, for example, John the Baptist (in modern terms one would say: he had a genius ability) interpreted the Scriptures in exactly this way. How else would he have thought of "washing" people with water? That the Law is a shadow of things to come... he got the symbolism of the Law exactly right.
  
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  EasyPrompt

  
  

  @PetrW, you're making things too complicated. It's not that difficult.

  
  

  The angel was a messenger to humans, not a messenger to spirit creatures.

  
  

  The progression of powers in Daniel chapters 2, 7, 8, and 11 are parallel to each other. They are presenting the same march of powers, just some have more details than others.

  
  

  Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Anglo-American, United Nations.
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  EasyPrompt

  "Abstract and timeless thought operations with symbols that must correspond to God's intention, which we have difficulty reconstructing, exclude, in my opinion, the possibility of learning the language of angels*. The book of Daniel will remain sealed without God's help.

  *In my opinion, for example, John the Baptist (in modern terms one would say: he had a genius ability) interpreted the Scriptures in exactly this way. How else would he have thought of "washing" people with water? That the Law is a shadow of things to come... he got the symbolism of the Law exactly right."

  
  

  John the Baptist didn't have "genius ability". He had holy spirit.

  
  

  Luke 1:39-45, 80 "So Mary set out in those days and traveled with haste into the mountainous country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the home of Zech·a·riʹah and greeted Elizabeth. Well, as Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the infant in her womb leaped, and Elizabeth was filled with holy spirit and loudly cried out: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruitage of your womb! So how is it that this privilege is mine, to have the mother of my Lord come to me? For look! as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Happy too is she who believed, for there will be a complete fulfillment of those things spoken to her from Jehovah.”...And the young child grew up and became strong in spirit, and he continued in the desert until the day he showed himself openly to Israel."

  
  

  Luke 3:2-6 "God’s declaration came to John the son of Zech·a·riʹah in the wilderness. So he went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching baptism in symbol of repentance for forgiveness of sins, just as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet: “A voice of one crying out in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah! Make his roads straight. Every valley must be filled up, and every mountain and hill leveled; the crooked ways must become straight, and the rough ways smooth; and all flesh will see the salvation of God.’”"

  
  

  It was God who gave John the message by means of holy spirit, that's why his message and actions "got the symbolism of the Law exactly right."

  
  

  Jehovah hasn't changed. He can use His holy spirit today to help people understand the meaning of the Bible, including the meaning of Daniel's prophecies. You don't need to know "the language of angels" to understand who is the king of the north or the king of the south. You need to know Jehovah, through Jesus. He is the one who said...

  
  

  "When the helper comes that I will send you from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which comes from the Father, that one will bear witness about me; and you, in turn, are to bear witness..."

  
  

  John 15:26,27
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  PetrW

  @EP

  Yes, the story of John the Baptist is a familiar one. But what I wanted to emphasize is that he has acquired an extraordinary ability to see the symbols in the Law that are - as it were - "behind" the text. He saw the Spirit and not the letter of the Law. And I find something similar missing in the interpretations of Daniel. The interpretation of the first half of chapter 11 - as you accurately describe - is then based on historical sources like Josephus Flavius or the Maccabees and other extra-biblical literature. We can then say that the first half of Daniel 11 is interpreted by Josephus and not by the Bible.

  This - in my opinion - needs to be changed. I've lived to see that for about 1700 years, a certain Hyppolitus of Rome and variants on his interpretation sufficed as a commentator on Daniel for Christians, but I don't want to live to see that for another 1700 years, it stays that way. It's time for a change! ✌️😁😁

  On a more serious note: as you write I see it complicated => I'm trying to figure out the state of affairs and it's not good. The interpretation of Daniel will be and is easy if Jesus would give you a hint. I struggle to hear how He would say: Have you not read there and there and this and that.... But so far I know of no one who has been given that honor. Not even the false prophets who would know there or elsewhere and for us to go there are none or even few. No one wants to be a false prophet today either, humanity has become lazy...😎😁
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  EasyPrompt

  John didn't "acquire" special knowledge or powers - it was by God he was given the free gift of the holy spirit to understand and to act and to teach in harmony with God's Word and God's will. John didn't go to special schools or learn from special websites or read the writings of special scholars.

  
  

  The scribes and Pharisees sought to "acquire" "special knowledge" for wrong motives, and it is the same with such-like ones today. Because they are asking for the wrong reasons, to exalt themselves over others, the knowledge and understanding of the scriptures are hidden from them.

  
  

  When Daniel chapter 11 was written down, the events foretold were yet future. Since many of those events have happened, part of those prophecies are now history. Some of the prophecies haven't happened yet. If Josephus recorded some of those events correctly in his histories after they happened, what of it? Does that negate that the prophecies were recorded in Daniel chapter 11? Not at all.

  
  

  Jesus is the one who pours out the holy spirit on whoever Jehovah draws today. If it's some lowly, unscholarly, country-bumpkin of a person who figuratively eats locusts and honey, what of it? It wouldn't be the first time some lowly person looked down upon by society in general was used to deliver information. It's also not surprising when those who are looking to "scholars" for answers totally overlook the ones Jehovah sends. That is Jehovah's way. He has a sense of humor.

  
  

  1 Corinthians 1:19-31

  
  

  "For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectuals I will reject.” Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this system of things? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish?

  
  

  "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not get to know God through its wisdom, God was pleased through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing. For the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks look for wisdom; but we preach Christ executed on the stake, to the Jews a cause for stumbling but to the nations foolishness.

  
  

  "However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and a weak thing of God is stronger than men.

  
  

  "For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, not many powerful, not many of noble birth, but God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame; and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, so that no one might boast in the sight of God.

  
  

  "But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom, so that it may be just as it is written: “The one who boasts, let him boast in Jehovah.”"
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  PetrW

  @EP

  EP: If Josephus recorded some of those events correctly in his histories after they happened, what of it? Does that negate that the prophecies were recorded in Daniel chapter 11? Not at all.

  PW: The problem I see is that we rely on extra-biblical commentaries. It's the same as in another discussion when you deny the possibility of drawing from extra-biblical sources that Noah & Co. didn't live for hundreds of years.

  I don't underestimate those sources, but I don't overestimate them either. I think your biblical thinking, unnecessarily heavily influenced by human traditions.