Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden 207 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Fisherman

Can you tell me what Joel 3:2 is describing and if it has been fulfilled yet?
No. Although WT has abandoned the typical anti typical rule applying to every single prophecy, some prophecies have more than one fulfillment. In the Insight Book under the Topic Jehoshaphat explains this verse is symbolic to mean God’s judging the nations for mistreating JW. The topic doesn’t say much more. Also, God doesn’t talk to me or to other JW dictating the meaning of the verse. My belief is only interpretation or commentary on what the verse means.

Can you tell me if according to the Scriptures in Rev below, are the trumpets blown in chronological order and if the 42-months take place during the 6th trumpet and are part of what is called the 2nd woe?
I don’t know. Years ago WT published the Rev book commentary on Rev. I don’t know at present how much of that commentary is still believed to be true. I apologize.

Do you/JW's believe the 1,000-year reign began in 1918 and we are 105 years into it?

At present, JW believe that Jesus began ruling in 1914. However, the millennium starts after Armageddon. I don’t know how Revelation is going to play out exactly.
Anony Mous

I don’t think the debate between the dates is pointless, one is clearly wrong and one is clearly right. The JWs NEED 607 otherwise 1914 is incorrect, so they say 607 is correct because otherwise 1914 is incorrect and we know 1914 is correct because if you calculate forward from 607, you get 1914. That’s literally the reasoning in the WTBTS publications, circular logic.
Archeological and plenty of other evidence has debunked 607, if you still want to believe in it, you’re only deluding yourself.
Jorden

Fisherman, Thank you! Now we are getting somewhere, this is a great. You addressed each of my questions with your personal understanding/knowledge. So, let's now continue in this same manner.
In regard to Joel, the WTS teaches that 3:2 is referring to Armageddon. They do not believe/teach that this had any past fulfillment and so they say this is future at Armageddon. As you saw for yourself in the Insight book it says:
[In our day, “the low plain of Jehoshaphat” serves as a symbolic winepress in which the nations are crushed like grapes for mistreating Jehovah’s people.]
Also, this is said:
[The nations will be judged in “the low plain of Jehoshaphat” (3:1-21) The nations will be judged for mistreating God’s people They are challenged to prepare themselves for war against Jehovah and to come down to the low plain of Jehoshaphat; there they will be crushed like grapes in a winepress At that time Jehovah will be a refuge for his people Egypt and Edom will become a wilderness, whereas Judah will be inhabited and produce abundantly; Jehovah will reside in Zion.]
[1:15; 2:1, 11, 31; 3:14 —What is “the day of Jehovah”? The day of Jehovah is the time of the execution of Jehovah’s judgment upon his enemies, resulting in destruction for them but salvation for true worshippers.]
[Judgment Upon the Nations Jehovah will save his faithful people when he executes judgment upon the nations. (Compare Ezekiel 38:18-23; Revelation 16:14-16.) Tyre, Sidon, and Philistia must pay for mistreating God’s people and selling them into slavery. Jehovah will bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, and he challenges his foes, saying: “Sanctify war!” But they are no match for God, who executes judgment upon them in the symbolic “low plain of Jehoshaphat.” Though heaven and earth will rock, Jehovah will be a refuge for his people. The faithful will survive the judgment upon the nations and will enjoy life under paradisaic conditions.—3:1-21.]
So, the answer to my question is that it is speaking about Armageddon, and it is still to be fulfilled in the future. I am in agreement with what the WTS says on this. Do you agree with that answer, or do we need to talk more about it? If you agree, then I can move on to show why I bring this subject up.
_____
In regard to the trumpets, that was no trick question from me or something that takes some special Bible understanding. And you don't need to know what the WTS says about it at this point. I wrote each of the Scriptures from the Bible itself and asked:
[Can you tell me if according to the Scriptures, are the trumpets blown in chronological order and if the 42-months take place during the 6th trumpet and are part of what is called the 2nd woe?]
Again, no tricks, no asking what WTS teaches, just asking based on what you read yourself what do you say about it.
_______________
In regard to the 1,000 years, I asked if you/JW's believed they started in 1918 and you said y'all believe they start after Armageddon. So, on this we can both agree that the 1,000 years have not started yet and is future. Because we agree here, I can move on further on this topic. Let me know about the trumpets and Joel.
Fisherman

Notsurewheretogo
The direction mentioned in the May 2013 WT is one of these things they could get wrong?
You shouldn’t conclude too much from this alert. All it is saying is that if a directive is given that doesn’t make sense, the brothers have your best interests in ming and they know what they are doing. Free to choose to do what you want but be forewarned.

You are told to follow everything the GB says yet as the Feb 2017 WT says they can be wrong, thoughts?
GB gives directives and counsel which they themselves follow which is supposed to be for the good of all. It is not only good advice but they have also have other information and God’s HS besides which leads them to give directions for the good of all. Take for example BT and aids and other infections. How many blood banks were dispensing infectious blood. Not debating that some people were saved using BT. Sexual immorality and infectious disease. Going to a psychiatrist without a mental disorder and then you have a mental health history they use against you for the rest of your life. What WT is saying is you need to trust. You are free to make your own choice. Not open for debate. Do as you choose.
you believe and stand by 607 BCE despite the mass amount of evidence to the contrary but you are not going to change your mind on that subject but can you then answer the above questions?
I’ve pointed out he difference between mass amount of evidence and interpretation of evidence. JW is a religion. It’s foundation claims to be JC and the Bible not scientific explanations and conclusions. Take for example Bible chronology compared to ancient fossils and other interpretations of evidence challenging the historicity of Noah’s flood, we believe the Bible and we believe Noah’s flood because JC validated it. According to the Bible, JC credentials were validated empirically with direct proof from God. So, JW have another variable that we factor in: God. Obviously, God must have provided to the witnesses some iota of evidence to build on and testify about. JW have made this claim. Which is why the interpretation of scientific evidence alone doesn’t falsify -607. However, -607 is Bible interpretation and so is 1914.
How does any believing JW believe the GB are appointed by God to lead and be his representative when they admit and have shown they are clearly wrong in teachings, doctrine and policies YET still demand that you do everything they say no matter how crazy in the future it may seem.
Why is God good when he allows evil?
Why did he allow king David to kill Uriah and why after such an outrage did he trust him to lead Israel and marry Uriah’s wife and have children with her becoming ancestors of JC? Why did God allow the evil kings of Israel to represent him? Why idolatry, ancient Israel were God’s covenant people and not other nations ? Why did God use his spirit to prophecy through Caiphas who was putting JC to death.,Why where tte Jews God continued people even when believing erroneous information such as the wrong meaning of the disgusting thing causing desolation, Greek philosophy, etc, etc. It did not disqualify them.
Were the Israelites Gods chosen? yes Was JC the Messiah yes Is the Bible the word of God yes Is JW God’s exclusive agency on earth yes. How do you know for sure? : Each person must come to his own personal conclusion. But not everything is ironed out so after you are convinced every time there is a problem or something doesn’t add up, do you become unconvinced and want to leave JW and go live a life according to your hearts desire, what you really want to do?
Fisherman

Archeological and plenty of other evidence has debunked 607
No it hasn’t. The scientific interpretation is arguable.
Jeffro

‘scholar’:
The FDS is a parabolic statement as a part of an eschatological context that has application to all of Jesus' disciples both as a collective - community and as individuals which would include the leadership namely the GB.
This word salad in response to a ‘yes or no’ question is reminiscent of the dishonest answer given by Geoffrey Jackson at the Australian royal commission.
Jeffro

Fisherman:
In the Insight Book ... My belief is only interpretation or commentary on what the verse means.
It doesn’t sound as though Fisherman has formed any beliefs other than whatever is spoonfed by the Watch Tower Society. Aren’t these people supposed to be ‘skilled Bible teachers’?

Anony Mous

Well, then, here is an argument from the WTBTS own publications:

Babylon fell	"Babylon fell in 539 B.C." Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules p.184	539 B.C.
Plus Nabonidus	"On the basis of cuneiform texts he is believed to have ruled some seventeen years(556-539 B.C.E.)." Aid to Bible Understanding - Nabonidus p.1195	17 years
Plus Labashi-Marduk	"Labashi-Marduk ... was a vicious boy, and within nine months he had his throat cut by an assassin." Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules p.184	1 year
Plus Neriglissar	Neriglissar ... reigned four years Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules p.184	4 years
Plus Evil-Merodach	"After reigning but two years King Evil-Merodach was murdered" Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules p.184	2 years
PlusNebuchadnezzar	"Nebuchadnezzar ruled as king for 43 years" Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2 p.480	43 years
Equals start of Nebuchadnezzar's reign	Calculated by adding above figures	606 B.C.
MinusNebuchadnezzar's 19th year	2 Kings 25:8-9 "And in the ... nineteenth year of King Neb·u·chad·nez´zar ... the servant of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem. And he proceeded to burn the house of Jehovah"	19th year
Date for Destruction	Therefore calculated as: 587BCE

Beth Sarim

Its true,,,that the internet is the Borgs worst nightmare.
Everything is catching up with them.
Fisherman

doesn’t sound as though
Correct. It seems to you.
In interpreting God’s Word, since I’ve already explained that God does not speak to me dictating what exactly a Bible verse mean, that’s why I say only my belief.
other than whatever is spoonfed by the Watch Tower Society.
Your flaw in logic and analysis is shown. First of all I’ve considered information on this thread from respected posters. I’ve also quoted from the Talmud and from Jewish sages such as Rashi, Moshe Ben Nachman, Rambam and others besides Christological books and other Bible commentators and languages throughout the years and more which you don’t know about. So again you are wrong. Even if I wasn’t a JW I would still concur with WT You only want to argue. My beliefs have formed from observation and study of wt material and other sources but not because wt says so although I agree with wt approach to interpret the Bible and WT interpretation.

Scholar and Fisherman

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