Would that qualify as Genocide? I guess Hitler felt justified knowing that the Jews had already done the same thing and recorded it proudly in the bible.
is there EVER a justification for killing children?
by zen nudist 29 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Enishi
The part in Genesis where Jehovahs orders Abraham to kill Isaac as some sort of loyalty test always disgusted me for many years as a dub, as did all the parts where God's "holy" people slaughter thousands of innocents under his orders. My thoughts on this now is that these scriptures are either corrupt religious propaganda invented by the ancient Jewish priests, or that they were meant to be entirely symbolic.
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bebu
All right, let me stir the pot a little.
If such child-killing would happen today, imagine the shock, the outcry over it. And most if not all religions would also join in to express outrage.
Is there ever a justification for killing children? Our society actually believes so, as there have been a staggering number of abortions legally performed on MILLIONS of children since 1972. This is one of those emotional topics, of course, but it surely seems that when a woman's freedom is on the line, then YES, there IS justification for killing children. (Of course, from the pro-choice position, there is no 'child' involved so to them the question is moot... Yet that declaration is, to me, another amazing display of the extent of our denial. Certainly denial is necessary for electing to kill an unborn child.)
(Let me continue on about the dilemmas in abortion a little, then I'll move on.)
I knew a man who hated abortion--yet defended it when women prisoners in Romania, raped by guards, let a fellow prisoner (a doctor) perform abortions on them. The doctor was a Christian. The women were aware that the children would die of starvation, if not killed outright by the guards. Was this kind of abortion merely 'convenience', too, and worthy of moral outrage from pro-lifers of today?... I soften here, thinking.
Or, other situations: medically necessary abortions. That is, when the mother's life is at stake due to an ectopic pregnancy or other unusual medical condition... Should therapeutic abortions also be outlawed? Is moral rage commanded? ... Or, what about when the child is a product of rape? Or, what about if the child is aborted at 8 months as opposed to 3 months--or vice versa?
OR, What about pulling a plug on a machine that delivers food or air to a brain dead or comatose child--especially if such an action that would absolutely result in the child's death?
Or, if we look in history at groups that preferred to kill their own children to spare them rape, torture and slavery (eg, Masada, but there are others), what kind of emotions do we deal with, if we know more details? Are ALL of these types of deliberate endings "murder", and worthy of outrage? These are all hard questions. They are hard to answer.
Is it always a black and white answer? Or does something else affect the answers?
I realize that I'm not quite addressing the moral outrage that you are feeling at God. But I am trying to point out something important that is quite related: it is possible to imagine a scenario where a child might be killed and there would be no shock or moral outrage in even this "advanced" society, because we believe there is a valid justification. And if there is such cases among us, then perhaps we could reflect that God also determines when the killing of a child may be a tragedy due to the circumstances, yet not be 'morally outrageous' on God's part. There is, it seems, that possibility.
As for me, I learned long ago that addition as well as the "edition" of details affects my opinon. Surface information rarely gives me enough for a solid opinion on important matters. And digging deeper is a commitment.
bebu
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zen nudist
And if there is such cases among us, then perhaps we could reflect that God also determines when the killing of a child may be a tragedy due to the circumstances, yet not be 'morally outrageous' on God's part.
Perhaps there are circumstances where the killing of a child may be justifiable...but not the MURDER of one for the reasons the bible gives-- namely WEAKNESS on the part of the chosen {Number 31} or INABILITY on the part of a parent to BRAINWASH a child.{deut 21}--surely?
Rules for radicals: make them live by their own standards.
I only bring this up to show that the bible god cannot be other than a human invention. The bible presents an ideal standard by which to judge good and evil as a representation of the mind of god, and part of this ideal is the justification of child murder for what most rational people instantly see as morally unacceptable... where do we get our morals from? I believe it need not come from any god, but simply the recognition that what hurts me probably hurts you too, and If I expect you to ask my permission before you do unto me, I should do likewise.
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DebraDoll
Wanna hear the most HORRIBLE reasoning told to me by an elder in the 70's about this very subject? "A farmer kills off nests of baby rats in his barn as they grow to be BIG VERMIN, don't they?" Ewwwww-I just felt the same shiver I did when I heard this......reminiscent of Nazi Germany.
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zen nudist
A farmer kills off nests of baby rats in his barn as they grow to be BIG VERMIN, don't they?" Ewwwww-I just felt the same shiver I did when I heard this......reminiscent of Nazi Germany.
you might think that THE most powerful and intellegent being in or beyond the cosmos would be able to give his people some sort of education plan for captured children so that murdering them would not be the first option...or would you?
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blondie
Hey zen and others,
Notice the circular reasoning of the WTS:
w68 10/15 637 Why God Decreed Extermination for the Canaanites
The Canaanite religion was extraordinarily base and degraded, their "sacred poles" evidently being sex emblems and many of the rites of their "high places" involving gross sexual excesses and depravity. No wonder God ordered their extermination! If even the women and children were allowed to remain, they would entice the Israelites to practice immoral, false worship.?Ex. 23:24; 34:12-17; Num. 33:52; Deut. 7:3-5; 20:16-18.
But why were the Canaanites being exterminated?
w92 4/1 9 Hailing God's New World of Freedom
And regarding Canaanite religion, Halley?s Bible Handbook says: "The worship of . . . Canaanite gods consisted in the most extravagant orgies; their temples were centers of vice. . . . Canaanites worshipped, by immoral indulgence, as a religious rite, in the presence of their gods; and then, by murdering their first-born children, as a sacrifice to these same gods. It seems that, in large measure, the land of Canaan had become a sort of Sodom and Gomorrah on a national scale." He adds: "Did a civilization of such abominable filth and brutality have any right longer to exist? . . . Archaeologists who dig in the ruins of Canaanite cities wonder that God did not destroy them sooner than he did."
but the WTS reassures the rank and file
In the resurrection the dead will come back to life on an earth forever freed from inherited Adamic death. No doubt the resurrected ones will include children sacrificed to Canaanite gods, such as Molech, young men sacrificed to Aztec gods, and countless millions sacrificed to the god of war. How amazed and delighted those former victims of false beliefs will be! Such resurrected ones can then happily declare: "Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O Sheol?"?Hosea 13:14.
What about the children exterminated by the Israelites because their parents were murderers?
Deuteronomy 24:16
"Fathers should not be put to death on account of children, and children should not be put to death on account of fathers. Each one should be put to death for his own sin
. Blondie
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zen nudist
If even the women and children were allowed to remain, they would entice the Israelites to practice immoral, false worship.?Ex. 23:24; 34:12-17; Num. 33:52; Deut. 7:3-5; 20:16-18.
The problem is that Moses let them keep the young girls alive for sex slaves or wifes, etc....what sort of immoral practices was Moses worried his MEN would do with the little boys, one wonders?
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rocketman
Good point Blondie - circular logic indeed.
bebu - the scenario I should have included would be one in which a war was fought and the world would come to know of children being carted off or pulled away from their parents and killed, or slaughtered with their parents. In my mind, that's what happened in Caanan when the Isrealites invaded.
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BluesBrother
Nice one, Bebu.
Like all of us , I am revolted by these instances now,(although they didnt use to look so bad) such was the conditioning of the Borg.
I do agree that it is easy to rush to judgement when we do not have all the facts, and we must put these events into the context of life in ancient times . I mean, how bad were the nations all around? Would it have been possible to have Israel as a model of modern democracy and liberal government ? I think not .