B.O.Y. ???
Isaiah 40:29-31 and Being Gay
by IWant2Know 45 Replies latest jw experiences
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KalebOutWest
IWant2Know wrote:
Well, it sounds like Isaiah 40:29-31 didn't help him since I'm pretty such most JWs have tried to apply those verses to themselves.
Those verses are not actually applicable to this situation or even about individual application, as Jehovah's Witnesses believe.
Isaiah chapter 40 starts what is known as "The Book of Consolation," otherwise known as Second Isaiah or Deutero-Isaiah. Over a century had passed since the prophet Isaiah who penned the first section of the book had passed. Cyrus the Great had come on the scene and liberated the people from exile to Babylon. While the Jewish hope of the Messiah was not fully formed yet, what they did understand about the "anointed one" to come was being focused upon this particular Persian ruler as a possible savior of the Jewish people since he allowed them not only to return to their homeland but gave them freedom to worship as they pleased.
The text you cite is speaking of the liberation of the children of Israel, returning to and rebuilding the homeland, reconstructing the sanctury of YHWH with God giving the exiles full attention and new strength to do the work. In chapter 40, Second Isaiah applies full credit to YHWH over any king or prince of the nations, including Cyrus.
This new school of prophets, in the name of Isaiah, write that God will make sure this strength to return and rebuild will be given to the Jews in those words of chapter 40:29-31:
He gives strength to the weary and new vigor to those who are powerless,
Even though young men faint and grow weary and youths stumble and fall,
those who place their hope in the Lord will regain their strength.
They will soar as with eagles' wings,
they will run and not grow weary,
they will walk and not become faint.It is a poetic oracle describing the people walking back to the Promised Land from Babylon or Sepharad (some of the Jews had been exiled to the Iberian peninsula), even though at the time of the composition many had already returned. The oracle is actually describing the liberation of the people, what it had been like, and attributed God's hand to Cyrus' work.
But the text does not mean that young men today can literally hope in God to gain strength so they do not stumble, as in the case of "falling into sin." The "stumble and fall" that is being described is not sinning but comparing the strength of "Jacob/Israel" of verse 27 to being stronger than young men that don't have the power to cross the desert like Israel does. Recall that Jacob was able to leave his mother and father behind to find his wives and return, crossing a desert--a trip that Esau, a stronger man, did not take to find his brides. God gave Israel that power. Esau, a more physically powerful man, was actually too weak to do what Israel accomplished. The verse in Isaiah is basically stating that like Jacob, the nation of Israel was given strength from God, not from Cyrus, to return to the Promised Land and rebuild, something that even young men could not do on their own, even if they tried.
Or in other words, the power did not come from Cyrus.
To use this same text as an encourgement for young people facing "sins" is not only taking it out of context but shows a deep lack of Biblical history and an inability to just read the context.
The context is about the Creator being the real Savior, the true Liberator, greater than any power found among the nations--it is not about how youths can find help when faced with sexual temptations.--Note especially 40:12, 13, 15, 23, 27-31.
The same section does give credit to Cyrus, but not by name, since Second Isaiah is here speaking of God as the true Redeemer of Israel.--See chapter 41:2.
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Kosonen
So, Kosonen, how did you become a non-Jehovah's Witness Christian?
Well, I disagreed with some things the WT teaches and got disfellowshipped for that 19 years ago, so I had to continue without support from a congregation to follow Jesus and obey his teachings. Personal prayer and reading of the Bible has kept me in the faith.
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KalebOutWest
Kosonen,
I for one think that is a very courageous conscientious stand you have taken.
It must be especially difficult to hear after all these years members of the Governing Body use phrases like: "We just don't know," and "We can't be dogmatic" at the recent Annual Meeting.
After more than 100 years of claiming they did in fact know "the Truth" about everything from God and of being very dogmatic about it, and shunning people over their claims, I cannot imagine if this new approach of theirs is even settling in yet for you--especially since they have yet to share these words with the entire Organization or world yet.
I stayed away until recently and then started to look for the Witnesses again out of curiousity--and boom! I was shocked (and found myself laughing in some instances) to see they were still around, even though it was nothing like the religion I knew back when I was there.
If I had cherished those beliefs, I would be heartbroken and somewhat confused to see what I honored and believed to disappear day by day, week by week, month by month, year by year. It's all going away.
The religion I know and it's teachings are gone. How are you coping since you could never go back? There is nothing to be faithful to as they are not even faithful to themselves or those that came before them.
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Reasonfirst
ScenicViewer and Iwant2know ask
B.O.Y. ???
bloody old yahweh
see Wikipedia's discussion of the word bloody and its use as an intensifier, and other meanings.
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Reasonfirst
OK, IWant2Know, I'll try to answer your questions.
My knowledge of my friend's struggles, comes from various conversations. Some of his memories came to light while I was doing a degree (for some 10 years) at Sydney's Macquarie University and Sydney Uni. I went there to study Asian History, and during one Semester focused on Japan. So I'm not going to pretend that I understand all his inner thinking on his life. I don't
During that period, I found that non-western attitudes in regard to homosexuality were quite different to Western culture. That's not to argue that it was equivalent in values to heterosexuality, just not condemned when someone indulged themselves with another male. In particular, one academic in the Japanese department was doing some studies into something called Shonen Ai, (which translates as 'as love between boys.') and also Yaoi
This can be seen as a cultural movement that started last century by a group of women who were dissatisfied with traditional attitudes by men toward women. I don't suggest that they were 'gay,' but that many decided to examine attitudes of gay males to each other in Japan to see how they thought male/female relationships could be improved. Does that sound improbable? Well, let me assure you that it's true.
Quote, from Wikipedia (under Yaoi)."It is typically created by heterosexual women for heterosexual women and is thus distinct from bara (gay manga), a genre of homoerotic media marketed to gay men, though yaoi does also attract a gay male audience and can be produced by gay male creators"
This led to many conversations with my friend.
So over the next day or so, I'll try to discuss your comments.
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IWant2Know
Kosonen said:
Hi, I would answer your question by saying that everyone has to struggle with sinful inclinations. Hetrosexual people might have a hard struggle with constant thoughts about fornication or adultery.
Well, even though heterosexual people might have a hard struggle with constant thoughts about fornication or adultery, I would say that 'many' people who are homosexual actually do have a hard struggle with constant thoughts of being attracted to the same sex. And even if they don't act upon those desires.
However, I can't imagine that too many heterosexual JWs have that hard of a struggle with sexual thoughts considering 1 Corinthians 7:9. Unless 1 Corinthians 7:9 is in reality useless for Christians. Although, one thing that I know for sure is that 1 Corinthians 7:9 is useless to the homosexual JW who is struggling with their sexual desires.
Also, I've read many anecdotal stories on the internet and jwfacts.com about the experiences of gay JWs. And many of them had such bad experiences, they ended up leaving the organization.
However, I figure that the responses by successful PIMI gay JWs are either by people who are bisexual, or whose libidos were to a degree where they could nip their desires in the bud. Because it's true that humans have different levels of libidos... Even 1 Corinthians 7:9 tells you that.
Also, before I started posting on this board, I looked and found quite a few threads about homosexuality, however, I didn't read them and thought I'd get a more current perspective of the topic by members.
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IWant2Know
KalebOutWest said:
Those verses are not actually applicable to this situation or even about individual application, as Jehovah's Witnesses believe.
I'm guessing that you are the person who said that he knew Hebrew and that his parents were Jewish. Because this is another time that I've been explained how certain Hebrew scriptures actually have a meaning that is not the meaning that Christians and Jehovah's Witnesses put upon those scriptures. For example, I understand that the well-known verse at Ecclesiastes 1:15 is supposed to have a different original Jewish meaning compared to the way that JWs apply it. And then there's the whole thing about the way many Hebrew scriptures have been applied 'differently' to Jesus, however, I do not want to go into that.
KalebOutWest said:
Over a century had passed since the prophet Isaiah who penned the first section of the book had passed. Cyrus the Great had come on the scene and liberated the people from exile to Babylon. While the Jewish hope of the Messiah was not fully formed yet. . .
Interesting. So, when did the Jewish hope of the Messiah actually form and became fully formed? Because I thought that Genesis 3:15 was the first prophecy about the Messiah. Although, I suspect that Jews have a totally different meaning for Genesis 3:15.
KalebOutWest said:
But the text does not mean that young men today can literally hope in God to gain strength so they do not stumble, as in the case of "falling into sin." The "stumble and fall" that is being described is not sinning but comparing the strength of "Jacob/Israel" of verse 27 to being stronger than young men that don't have the power to cross the desert like Israel does.
KalebOutWest, I think that you may have broke my brain... Or you may have fixed it. Or perhaps helped to fix it. But I have to let all this sink in.
KalebOutWest said:
To use this same text as an encourgement for young people facing "sins" is not only taking it out of context but shows a deep lack of Biblical history and an inability to just read the context.
The context is about the Creator being the real Savior, the true Liberator, greater than any power found among the nations--it is not about how youths can find help when faced with sexual temptations.I've always found it helpful to get answers about the Hebrew scriptures from people who speak Hebrew and who have a Jewish background. However, unfortunately, there have been some questions asked to Jewish people that they seem to evade.
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IWant2Know
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IWant2Know
Reasonfirs said
B.O.Y. ???
bloody old yahweh
see Wikipedia's discussion of the word bloody and its use as an intensifier, and other meanings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BloodyOh, wow... That's deep.