drinking wine in the Kingdom

by enoughisenough 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • enoughisenough
    enoughisenough

    Something jumped out at me that I never paid attention to while reading further into Matt 26...in vs 28, he tells them his blood is to be poured out for the many for forgiveness of sin. But note vs 29 But I say to you: I will no menas drink again any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with YOU in the Kingdom of my Father. Cross reference Mark 14:25 " until I drink in new in the Kingdom of God". Cross reference Luke 22:18 for I tell you , from now on, I will not drink again from the PRODUCT OF THE VINE until the Kingdom of God comes.

    What is the point of all of this: Matt 26:29 " I drink it new with YOU " Mark 14:25 " drink new in the Kingdom of God. Luke 22:18 " product of the vine" ? This is earthly, not heavenly! Heavenly creatures are spirits. Do you think there are grape vines in Heaven? But Jesus says he will drink the product of the vine again with YOU ( his disciples ) in the Kingdom of his Father.

    this leads me to another question that I haven't looked into...when Jesus was back on earth after his resurrection, did he drink any wine? and if so, wouldn't that mean the Kingdom of God had come?

  • waton
    waton

    a related question is, with relief from the effects of sin 1000 years away, why would the celebration of the memorial, the covenant for forgiveness of sin stop during the great tribulation, after the overlapping anointed generation of 1914 has passed away? after all,

    The kingdom did not come in 1914, it's coming is still being prayed for.

  • truth_b_known
    truth_b_known

    The prophesied Messiah of the Jewish belief system was to -

    1. Be an earthly King who
    2. Freed the Jews from gentile conquerors and
    3. Established Israel as the ruler over the Earth.

    The Jesus of the Gospels was none of those things, including being the promised Messiah.

    In addition, none of the men in the room with Jesus during the Lord's Evening Meal believed they would die and go to heaven. They believed Jesus would establish his kingdom on Earth and resurrect the faithful to live under his rule.

  • Acluetofindtheuser
    Acluetofindtheuser

    It says there is no corruption in heaven and the process of fermentation is just that. The grape is going into a state of decay when it ferments and becomes wine. If Jesus says he'll drink wine again then he will be in physical form not spiritual in order to drink it.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    The verses say "product of the vine" not wine. The product of the vine can simply be unfermented grape juice. Many people read "wine" into the verses, but the verses don't actually say wine. Both unfermented grape juice and wine are products of the vine. For example, the Seventh-day Adventists are forbidden to drink wine and they use unfermented grape juice in their Lord's Supper communion. See https://www.adventist.org/the-lords-supper/ . It says in part the following.

    'Wine, or grape juice—Jesus blood

    The fruit of the vine symbolizes Jesus’ blood that was shed for us.

    “This is My blood of the new covenant,” said Jesus, “which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28).

    “Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins” (Hebrews 9:22, ESV).

    As with the bread, Jesus was standing before His disciples when He made the pronouncement, “This is My blood.”

    Was the fruit of the vine fermented or unfermented?

    Most Seventh-day Adventist Christians believe the fruit of the vine used in the Passover celebration was unfermented grape juice. After partaking of the cup, Jesus said,

    “I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom” (Matthew 26:29).

    Above all, considering the ways fermented wine is often condemned in Scripture, Seventh-day Adventists seek to commemorate Christ’s sacrifice for us with a clear, unclouded mind.

    “Wine is a mocker, Strong drink is a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise” (Proverbs 20:1).

    Do not look on the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it swirls around smoothly; at the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like a viper” (Proverbs 23:31, 32).

    “But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king’s delicacies, nor with the wine which he drank; therefore he requested of the chief of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself” (Daniel 1:8).

    Grape juice, freshly squeezed from the vine, is a fitting symbol of the perfect blood of Christ, shed for the redemption of mankind.'

    See also https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1965/02/wines-of-the-bible which says in part the following. "The Seventh-day Adventist position on the use of intoxicating bev­erages has ever been con­sistent and Biblical. The church has always taken the unequivocal stand that alcoholic drinks are debilitating to body and mind, and hence are not to be used by the child of God, for "if any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are" (1 Cor. 3:17). Not only does the use of such beverages defile body and mind but the result of their con­tinued use makes a person unfit to enter the kingdom of heaven (chapter 6:10). Alcohol is formed by the process of fermen­tation. Fermentation signifies death, death is the result of sin, hence fermentation is a type of sin."

    https://www.adventist.org/official-statements/historic-stand-for-temperance-principles-and-acceptance-of-donations-statement-impacts-social-change/ says the following.

    "Historic Stand for Temperance Principles and Acceptance of Donations Statement Impacts Social Change

    From the very inception of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, temperance has been a major focus and the Church has played a key role in struggling against the inroads of alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and other drugs. While some Christian denominations have lessened their emphasis on temperance, Seventh-day Adventists have continued to vigorously oppose the use of alcohol, tobacco, and improper drugs. The stand of the Church advocating abstinence from harmful substances is well established in the Church’s fundamental beliefs."

    After I became age 21 I tried out wine and other alcoholic drinks on occasion to see if I would like it and to see how my body would feel, and I discovered that I strongly dislike the taste of alcohol (a poison) and I strongly dislike the way alcohol (a poison) makes my body feel. I thus strongly dislike drinking of wine and other alcoholic drinks (lacking unfermented fruit juice). In contrast I enjoy drinking unfermented fruit juices (but now I rarely even drink those because the high sugar content can cause health problems over time). The only times an alcoholic drink tasted good to me was when it was a mixed drink containing unfermented fruit juice mixed in with wine. I also dislike the strong smell of wine (including from meats cooked in wine).

    When I observed the Memorial of Jesus Christ by myself (which I did for two years) with me officiating it for myself I bought red grapes from the grocery store and squeezed out the red grape juice and drank it instead of wine, since I did not want any alcohol.

  • TD
    TD

    The JW's are correct in pointing out that Passover in Palestine is 6 to 7 months after the grape harvest in a climate comparable to Tucson, Arizona.

    The SDA's might not approve of wine, but it tastes a helluva lot better than vinegar

  • enoughisenough
    enoughisenough

    Disillusioned JW- you wrote freshly squeezed grape juice is fitting for the representation of Jesus's blood, but this is Passover, early Spring...would they have had fresh juice? When Jesus turned water into wine, it was clearly Wine, not juice. So that is another tangent......I think TD made a valid point!

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    I am saying that nothing in the words attributed to Jesus about the Memorial specifically say that wine is to be used. As to whether or not fresh grapes and fresh grape juice would have been available during Passover time, I don't know, though I know the WT says such was not available. Regarding the account of Jesus turning water into intoxicating wine for the guests to drink, such is somewhat unsettling to me whenever I think of that account. I don't know what to make that account regarding the wine mentioned as being intoxicating. I have not done much research on that matter, however the https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1965/02/wines-of-the-bible source I provided in my prior post briefly discusses an SDA view about the turning of water into wine and about the meaning of the biblical words which are sometimes translated as "wine". That source also says the following.

    'Christ's first miracle at the mar­riage feast was to produce "good wine" in an emergency. This was the pure juice of the grape.

    ... The Saviour's final act with His disciples was the institution of the Lord's Supper to take the place of the Passover supper. That the wine used on this occasion was unfer­mented is established by the fact that dur­ing the Passover season leaven and all other things fermented were not to be found in any Hebrew home (Ex. 12:15). It is unthinkable that the wine used to rep­resent His blood (1 Cor. 11:25) would bear the taint of ferment and its cause, which is death. Jesus said to the disciples, "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom" (Matt. 26:29). The wine used at the Lord's Supper was called the "fruit of the vine." Ferment is a type of sin, and since in Him was no sin, the wine that represents His blood must be without ferment.

    ... The Septuagint uses the Greek oinos to translate both yayin and tirdsh—the for­mer referring to wine in general, the latter to unintoxicating wine. On the basis of this, careful scholarship should attend the interpretation of those texts where oinos is used, taking cognizance of the context in which the word is found. This alone de­termines whether oinos should be rendered as an intoxicating beverage or not. Notice the usage of oinos in the following texts: Luke 7:33—"For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil." Luke 10:34—"And [the good Samaritan] went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine." John 4:46—"So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine." The word oinos is used in each of the above texts, but obviously dif­ferent kinds of wine are being set forth.

    ... The study of the wines of the Bible re­veals the fact that for every good thing that God has made, Satan has made a counter­feit. Nowhere in the Scriptures can it be proved that God has put His endorsement on the use of intoxicating wine. He has given man the pure juice of the grape for his enjoyment and benefit. He provided it as a symbol of the spilt blood of Jesus Christ for our sins, and greatest of all, we have the Saviour's promise: "I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom" (Matt. 26: 29).'

    If I recall correctly, Charles Taze Russell did not alcohol. But his successor, Joseph Rutherford (a drunkard) did. Rutherford published considerable literature through the WT saying it is fine to drink alcoholic drinks. Rutherford resisted the Prohibition amendment to the USA Constitution which prohibited alcoholic drinks. On the matter whose views was more correct - that of Russell or of Rutherford and the successors to Rutherford?

  • TD
    TD

    Wine has never been considered Chametz.

    --Not trying to be argumentative. I'm just a guy who lives in a climate comparable to Palestine, who grows grapes and makes half-way decent wine sometimes.

    It takes pasteurization, glass bottles, and refrigeration (After the bottle is opened) to prevent fermentation. Otherwise, the window for unfermented grape juice is pretty narrow.

  • enoughisenough
    enoughisenough

    This is very interesting concerning wine/no wine, but the point of my post is the Jesus drinking the product of the vine AGAIN with his followers in the "Kingdom of God", the " Kingdom of the Father"...WT would have you believe these ones would be in heaven...that isn't the picture I am getting from what Jesus said. My understanding is heaven is a spirit realm .

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