At what point, does one become apostate to the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses?

by Vanderhoven7 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Vanderhoven7

  At what point does a Jehovah’s Witness cease to be a Jehovah’s Witness? What if a Witness doesn't believe some of the official teachings of the Governing Body but remains silent on these subjects to avoid being disfellowshipped? Is he or she an apostate to the faith? Is it possible that there is a high percentage of Jehovah's Witnesses that don't believe some of the core teachings of the religion?

  Grant Davis writes:

  Belief here is an interesting concept. Does it mean that you believe everything - is the gestalt important to being the belief?

  For example, I knew a JW woman who was not happy with only male members operating the sound system. There’s no biblical basis for the belief, so why is it so?

  My own, late parents, didn’t believe in shunning me as they saw it as cruel and inhumane. I’m sure these folks aren’t unique and if you scratch below the surface, almost every JW is going to have that small nagging doubt which they supress in favour of continued belief.

  If your benchmark for belief is that JWs accept everything without question, then my parents didn’t believe.

  If your benchmark for belief is clinging to a core doctrine, then at what point do doubts in that doctrine, represent apostasy?

  In my own case I was concerned in the 90s that the 1914 generation had by some means passed away. I was told to leave it Jehovah’s hands. I continued to hold onto the religion until about 6 years ago. The solution to the 1914 belief was so ridiculous, so contrived and so unscriptural, it made my mind up that the religion was entirely wrong and they were making stuff up.

  From that you might say that I was always in a state of disbelief which only required confirmation.

  As for percentages, I have no idea.
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  TonusOH

  I don't think there is a clear demarcation, it is one of those things where it may be subject to interpretation.

  I recall a Watchtower magazine article explaining how a couple was disfellowshipped for apostasy. They had a different interpretation of a matter and would not stop telling others about it. Later, the WT came around to the same interpretation, but the two were not reinstated. Their crime was not being right or wrong, but going against the directives of the GB. Presumably, they were warned to stop their behavior and ignored the warnings. So, which part made them apostates- disseminating a different view, or ignoring demands to stop?

  Ray Franz, in Crisis of Conscience, explains that the GB took the approach that even thinking such thoughts was sufficient to constitute apostasy. Doubtless this was approach was taken specifically to deal with Franz and the others who were disfellowshipped for apostasy at that time. I don't think this is how they view it today, though they would probably warn the rank and file that entertaining such thoughts may lead to a bad outcome. In which case, thinking these things may lead to apostasy but not actually be apostasy.

  And yet, apostasy would imply opposition to the WTS and the GB. The GB will refer to apostates as "opposers" sometimes. If you are a loyal JW, but you differ on a point or two, are you opposing the WTS/GB? Does it require action (telling others about it) or is it enough that you believe that they have it wrong? What if they change the teaching later? Were you an apostate for having it right when they had it wrong?
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  Pallbearer

  If you are a loyal JW, but you differ on a point or two, are you opposing the WTS/GB? Does it require action (telling others about it) or is it enough that you believe that they have it wrong? What if they change the teaching later? Were you an apostate for having it right when they had it wrong?

  
  

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  If you don't mind me saying so . . .

  
  In any Organization there is a need for leadership, hence the reason for the Governing Body. The 9 members on the GB recognize that they are not perfect and can therefore make mistakes. For this reason, if someone genuinely believes that the GB has a mistaken view on some matter the Watchtower has said in print that "suggestions for improvement are proper". Why a person should take that route is for two primary reasons, regardless of who it is that has the correct view: 1) It's the only course of action that can bring about a change of thinking or doctrine. 2) If the person were to tell other people about his/her diverse view there is the chance that it could result in stumbling them or it could create disunity in the Congregation. The Scriptures say that Christians should be fitly united in the same line of thought, and that there should be no divisions.

  
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  ExBethelitenowPIMA

  Leaving a faith doesn’t make you apostate by true definition. Only if you are actively speaking and acting against it do you become apostate.

  I think some people twist this true definition to try to make it sound like everyone who doesn’t believe every word exactly is now apostate. This is untrue.
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  blondie

  "even thinking" I think the WTS "thinks" they and their representatives can "read minds," in print they admit they cannot. Of course if you speak your thoughts to someone or someones that can report you to the elders, that is different. I know the WTS thought they had verbal statements made to other jws who testified that (and could have lied to save their skin), that would have moved the WTS to use that. Ray Franz was not df'd and then left Bethel. That took place some time after when he was seen having dinner with a da'd jw. Interestingly enough, Ray's wife was also at that dinner but was not df'd or considered having da'd herself (straight from her and Ray to me in their kitchen.

  WTS written comments on "reading minds" or hears to be added in an edit shortly.

  WT March 2023 p. 30 Granted, Jesus could read hearts. We cannot. But we can make allowances for the imperfections of our brothers and sisters.

  WT August 2022 p. 31 Like Joseph, we leave the judging to Jehovah. For example, we do not presume to know what motivates our brothers and sisters to act as they do. We cannot read hearts; only “Jehovah examines the motives.”

  Come Be My Follower Chap. 4 p.39

  WT October 2021 p. 6 The elders cannot read hearts, so they must rely on outward evidence that their brother has had a complete change of viewpoint toward his sin

  WT 5/1/2001 p. 11 Yes, our Christian brothers and sisters can serve as “a strengthening aid” to us during life’s difficult moments and thus help us to preserve our joy. (Colossians 4:11) Of course, they cannot read our minds.

  WT also, can supply source if asked.

  Granted, Jesus could read hearts. We cannot. But we can make allowances for the imperfections of our brothers and sisters.
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  ExBethelitenowPIMA

  Official definition of Apostate

  noun

  1. a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc.
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  ExBethelitenowPIMA

  Having doubts or not quite agreeing with something is not forsaking it entirely
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  DesirousOfChange

  When you state you disagree with the GB position on any matter.
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  ExBethelitenowPIMA

  I don’t think that’s true.

  when Steve Lett said the other day that all babies are enemies of God I know loads of people said that was a silly thing to say, in fact pretty much everyone disagrees with a member of the GB there.

  I can think of loads more examples and they are not all apostates.
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  blondie

  The WTS teaches that minor children who cannot make decisions for themselves (which the would put babies in this category) are protected by the status of just one parent, that is if one parent is "faithful" to jah (=WTS) they will survive. The WTS notes that the minor children of the people who died at the flood died forever. They can quibble about this, but this what I have been told over the 60 years of my contact with the WTS. Babies with non-jw parents (both) will die forever too with their parents, even pregnant women. But the WTS will dance around an answer like that.