e-watchman responds!

czarofmischief

http://www.e-watchman.com/commentaries/nov_21_oblivion.html

This inane gibbering reveals the real motives behind e-watchman! He wants his own following!

I will post my rebuttal of this bonehead's commentary in a minute.

CZAR

Here is my letter to e-Watchman. I have not recieve his reply yet

Hello!

I have just finished reading your comments about Ray Franz in your Q&A sectin. I must say, your comments are inaccurate and full of halfthruths. Let me just point few of them:

Quote: He left the organization in the early 1980's because of his not seeing eye-to-eye with the Watchtower Society on numerous issues. In 1980 he was pressured to resign as a governing body member. He was still a JW in good standing.
In 1981 he was seen with a friend, who was disassocited just few monts before, in a restaurant, having a lunch. Very shortly after that an article was published in The Watchtower, stating, that status of DA persons is equal to status of DF persons.
On the basis of that, he was later disfellowshiped. He appealed that decision, but did not succeed. So to say, that "he left the organisation" is not accurate, he was thrown out. He was not thrown out because not "seeing eye to eye with WT Society",
but because he broke that new rule.

Quote: Franz is a tragic figure, in that, while he obviously had a keen mind for the nuts and bolts of the truth, he did not seem to possess very much faith in Jehovah.Here, you are judging his "faith in Jehovah". On what facts is this judgement based? Have you spoken with him about his faith? Have you read all of his books? Quote: As a result, he was unable to reconcile what he saw as deficiencies in the truth with his own meager faith. Hence, he experienced his so-called crisis in conscience.You are judging again. He didnt believe anymore, that Watchtower Society was Gods Org. Just naming yourself as Jehovahs Witness doesnt make you his "visible" Org. The facts are showing, that WT Org. isnt and never was Gods Org.

Quote: In reality, though, men like Franz can only see what is wrong and cannot impart any fresh faith-strengthening spiritual insights from God's Word.As I stated before, he was thrown out of the Org on a basis of a man-made rule (not in any way connected with the bible teachings).
His books are very upbuilding and well documented, he is not promoting atheism as many other ex Witnesses do. Quote: Instead of accepting his internal crisis of conscience as Jehovah's means to refine his faith and discipline him, Franz, and men like him, become partners with thieves and adulterers in two ways. One, they give Jehovah's Witnesses who are involved in wrongdoing justification for their own defection from the truth. And secondly, they equip our religious and secular enemies with ammunition to use against Jehovah's Witnesses.Again, he had his crisis of conscience after he was thrown out and after more than 40 years of his service to WT Org. He did not become partner with thieves and adulterers, he did not form his sect, that is so unfounded.

Quote: In my opinion, much of Franz's writing is little more then tabloid gossip. Should he be admired or applauded because he betrayed the trust of his high office by giving details of private conversations he had with his trusting brothers at Bethel? He even published confidential memos that he had access to because of his position. Jehovah despises such perfidy.Famillies of Thousands of those, who died in Malawi, wouldnt share your viewpoind about "tabloid gossip". He did not betray the trust of his high office, because he published all those info. after they throwed him out. They were the first ones to betray the trust and they used their power to DF him. Jehovah has no
confidential memos so he does not despises such perfidity. Franz exposed
many dirty secrets of the WT Org. and he had all the right to do so.

Those are just factual irregularities in your writings. Few months ago, you asked me to po a link to your site on my site. On the basis of those serious errors I cannot recommend your site to my readers. I am also sorry for my bad English.

Regards, Izzy

czarofmischief

My comments are boldfaced, e-watchmans article is italicized

In view of numerous emails from readers in response to last week's comments about Ray Franz, it seems appropriate to set a few matters straight.

Vulnerable to public opinion, are we? This shows just how much e-watchman relies on the public's response.

First, on the matter of judging others: It is somewhat dismaying that apparently even some of Jehovah's Witnesses suppose that the Bible's injunction against judging our brothers somehow applies in the case of those who would mislead us. That is a wrong application of a biblical principle. For example, in the very same sermon where Jesus told us not to judge our brother or presume to extract the splinter of fault in our brother's eye, Jesus also warned us to be on guard against those who would defraud us of our faith, saying at Matthew 7:15: "Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them."

Fruits? Very well, then, e-watchman has set forth the criteria by which we shall judge him. "Out of his own mouth," will he be condemned. Let us read and examine the "fruits" he reveals.

Jesus' graphic illustration ought to help us appreciate the fact that spiritual predators may be very hard to recognize as such. They may appear to be genuine Christians?but appearances can be very deceiving. But, how is it possible to ever "recognize them" without using our faculty of judgment? It is not possible. The very act of identifying a wolf in sheepskin is to judge that one. Not only is it our right to make judgments in these matters, it is also the moral obligation of good watchmen and shepherds to sound the alarm when there is clear evidence that proves a wolf has donned a sheep's cloak and is on the prowl among the flock. Why should any clear-thinking Christian even question the appropriateness of that?

The question is, "Who appointed e-watchman to be our shepherd, to be our "watchman", in fact?" The answer is, e-watchman! Jehovah did not reach down and anoint him, Jehovah did not reach down and pour out his holy spirit upon him! Ergo, e-watchman is either delusional, or far worse. He is presumptuously claiming the prerogatives that belong to appointed shepherds - determining if a man (ie. Ray Franz) is a wolf or a sheep. While Moses had a column of fire, and Joshua dried up the Jordan, and Elisha raised the dead as testimony to their divine appointment, what has e-watchman done? Has he even revealed himself with his real name?

Secondly, some readers have expressed indignation that e-watchman has cited Ray Franz by name. But, there is no impropriety in that. Ray Franz is a well-known public figure?at least among Jehovah's Witnesses. It is not as if I used the name of a private individual who would otherwise be unknown to the reader. Most of the anti-Watchtower websites on the Internet make liberal use of Ray Franz. His books are considered "must reading" by opposers of Jehovah's Witnesses. In fact, it is not at all unfair to consider the growing number of ex-Jehovah's Witnesses as disciples of Ray Franz. So, to connect Ray Franz to the anti-Watchtower movement is simply to state the obvious.

I do not think anyone considers themselves as disciples of Ray, and from my readings I do not think that Ray seeks such a following! When has Ray ever asked a follower for money? But the Watchtower recently devoted a lengthy article urging its followers to give up their jewelry and savings. When has Ray ever asked anyone to die for the sake of his pride? But the Watchtower condemned Christians in Malawi to death by refusing to allow them to buy political cards, and AT THE SAME TIME urged brothers in Mexico to bribe officials to escape military service. Their pride, their need to "give a witness" is what actually condemned those Christians, not Bible principles, which urge all to "render unto Caesar those things that are Caesar's" and to "Go a second mile" with the one who impresses you into service.

Besides, in the 1 st Century the apostle Paul named the names of those who were notorious in wrecking the faith of fellow believers. For instance, in his 2 nd letter to Timothy, Paul mentioned Hymenaeus and Philetus by name, saying of them: "These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some." Was Paul judging them? Yes, of course he was. But, he rightly judged them on the basis of the criteria Christ laid down for us?by their fruits. The fruitage that allowed Paul to recognize those men for what they were was that they were "subverting the faith of some."

The importance of fruitage in judging is important in determining true motive. Do you trust the Watchtower to be candid and honest about its shortcomings? In his books, Ray details his personal quest, and constantly urges a personal relationship with God. Do you realize that if we held the Watchtower accountable for all of its false predictions and error-ridden theology, its constant need to dictate our life choices, and its inconsistent stance on various issues - if we could sue the Watchtower in the Court of God, we would not only have a case, we would win! But Ray never makes any promises not found directly in the Bible. He merely relays the Bible's promises, not putting undue emphasis on minor points of dogma and prophecy. What about e-watchman? He picks up some points of Witness dogma and tosses others aside as "obviously incorrect" and makes his own predictions, which have always been incorrect, as in when he predicted that the war with Iraq would not happen.

Jesus also named names. In the 2 nd chapter of Revelation, Jesus actually commended the brothers in Ephesus because they hated the deeds of the sect of Nicolaus. Jesus said to them: "Still, you do have this, that you hate the deeds of the sect of Nicolaus, which I also hate. Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations." Conversely, Jesus rebuked those in the Pergamum congregation who were "holding fast the teaching of the sect of Nicolaus."

We are not told anything about the man Nicolaus. Perhaps he was not even personally a member of either congregation. Neither are we told anything about the teaching of Nicolaus and why Jesus hated the deeds of his followers. But, evidently the sect of Nicolaus was not a stand-alone sect as we might think of a sect today as being; but rather, the sect of Nicolaus evidently operated as a sub-sect, submerged within the congregations back then. Likely the sect of Nicolaus accepted much of the teachings of the apostles but differed only in a few key doctrines?or perhaps just one. At any rate, the sect posed a very real spiritual danger to Christ's congregation. But, the point is: How would it be possible for the Ephesians to "hate the deeds of the sect of Nicolaus" without also judging Nicolaus as an enemy of the truth?

Who also promotes sects? e-watchman does! He picks up some doctrines and drops others, willy-nilly.

Paul similarly instructed Christians to reject any man who promotes a sect, saying: "As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning, he being self-condemned." (Titus 3:10-11)

Does the act of rejecting a man involve judging him? Yes, of course it does. But in the case of a promoter of a sect, Paul said that such an individual is self-condemned. So, rather than making our own judgments in such matters, it is merely a matter of accepting the judgment that is self-evident.

Now, the question: Is Ray Franz a promoter of a sect? Yes, absolutely! Why can we say that? Because Ray Franz promotes teachings that run counter to the truth that is held in common by Christ's anointed congregation. Just as Jesus condemned those who were "holding fast the teaching of the sect of Nicolaus," so too, the followers of Ray Franz holds fast to unbiblical teachings.

So is e-watchman. Could you please, tell me again, why holidays are so unholy - when Paul says that he who observes the day observes it to Jehovah, that all things are allowed while not all things are advantageous? Why is blood transfusion so foul, when in fact the Bible does not condemn its use as medicine and merely prohibits its eating? So you are keeping some of the trappings of Jehovah's Witnesses while discarding the central doctrine of 1914 - the very doctrine that tells us we are living in the time of the end.

What are some of these sectarian teachings? For one, Ray Franz teaches that there is no distinction between the little flock of the anointed and the other sheep. He basically teaches what Christendom teaches?that all Christians go to heaven. Franz teaches that God may or may not literally burn the earth up some day. He doesn't feel that anyone can really know the truth on such matters. It is a weasely wishy-washy position to take to be sure. But the point is: The teachings of Ray Franz run completely counter to the core doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses as to Jehovah's purpose to provide a kingdom of 144,000 to rule over a paradise on earth. Those who embrace such teachings may be said to hold fast to the teachings of the sect of Ray Franz.

I would say that the Jehovah's Witnesses core doctrine revolves around the Kingdom as preached by people who believe that it came invisibly in 1914 and thus they were appointed by Christ himself to spread the word of its presence. Since e-watchman dicards this doctrine, it is hard to see exactly where he is getting his authority.

Paul said in reference to Hymenaeus and Philetus: "Their word will spread like gangrene." How true that has been of Ray Franz's words as well. Like the 1 st Century Cretins, Franz's teachings have also subverted the faith of entire households of Jehovah's Witnesses. The Internet has literally dozens of ex-JW anti-Watchtower websites, and nearly all of them promote Ray Franz or his teachings in some form. For a certainty, the teachings of Franz are truly comparable to a rapidly spreading, gangrenous, faith-destroying cancer.

Judging by the end results of Ray Franz's writings, namely the stumbling of many thousands of Jehovah's Witnesses and interested persons; we may rightly judge Ray Franz as a promoter of a sect and an enemy of the truth. As Jesus said, "by their fruits"?and the fruits of Franz's teaching is demonstrably rotten!

No doubt, the Devil would prefer that Jehovah's Witnesses today would suspend their God-given powers of judgment under the rubric of not judging our brother. However, it is our right and obligation to judge such a man. Moreover, we may also expect to hear Christ's eventual commendation for hating the deeds of the sect of Ray Franz.

Threats, mudslinging, and statements that cannot be either disproved or proven. For all we know, the Devil is helping e-watchman maintain loyalty to a corrupt and tyrannical organization! Who is to say that the "fruitage" of being "loyal" to a stultifying and oftentimes indifferent organization is a good thing? Not me! I say that's a bad thing, to live a life of desperation, pain, and sacrifice when such is patently unnecessary. When the organization comes between you and God, how can it be a good thing? The Bible says there is one mediator between God and Man, that is Christ, since the abolition of the Mosaic Law. How often we have heard these threats of Armageddon and judgement, and they have NEVER proven accurate. While the rarely heard injunctions to be "peaceable towards all men" are the ones that work in day to day life.

Here are a few questions from a reader on this topic that would normally appear in the mailbag.

Hopefully they haven't been made up.

You made the following statement regarding Raymond Franz: "It is not that Franz himself is the source of the stumbling blocks though. For the most part such men have merely capitalized on the Watchtower's own folly, knowing that the average Jehovah's Witness or person studying simply does not have the depth of knowledge and faith to counter such things." This seems to be a judgment as to motive, but since we are not a reader of human hearts, what qualifies you to determine another's motive? *****

If someone were to purposefully dump a vat of cyanide into a city's drinking water, would it be unfair to judge that person as to their motive? By the same measure, when a man of Franz's stature in the organization writes books directed to Jehovah's Witnesses and a large percentage of those who read his writings are stumbled, many ceasing to continue as Jehovah's Witnesses, we are left with only two conclusions: One, the writer knows full well the result his writings will have on others. Or two: He is stupid and does not realize the effect of his influence. Personally, I do not think Ray Franz is stupid.

False argumentation. Ray did not murder anybody. He just told the truth - what actually happened, and let the majority of people who were living in ignorance decide for themselves.

Can you provide actual evidence that Raymond Franz has anywhere said that Witnesses are better off leaving the Watchtower organization and "going it alone"? Please provide a verifiable reference. ****

I did not say that Ray Franz ever advised Jehovah's Witnesses to leave the Watchtower. He is much too clever for that. But, if you look at the end result of his teaching, and the faith-destroying effect his writings have upon the reader, then it is obvious what he is all about. II Peter the 2 nd chapter warns us, the same as Jesus warned us, that there will be false teachers in our midst. The 3 rd verse says that "they will exploit you with counterfeit words."

A person may unknowingly accept counterfeit currency because they are unable to detect the fraud, but that does not mean that they are genuinely enriched and can use the currency themselves. They are stuck with it?to their loss. By the same token, those who accept "counterfeit words" from the smooth-talkers may imagine them to be genuine words of faith. However, we can no more benefit from false words than we can pass counterfeit currency with impunity. The end result is spiritual ruination. Obviously, many believe that Ray Franz is the genuine article, but, like Jesus said: "By the fruits you will recognize those men."

Personally, I think that Ray's words, which encourage a personal relationship with God and Christ are far more encouraging than the latest Watchtower exercise in manipulation through fear. E-watchman likes to threaten with prophecy as well - and his fruitage is a terrified, cowed following that flocks to him because he is an extremist, willing to go out on a limb with ridiculous threats and prophecies. Much like the radical imams that recruit terrorists in Islam, e-watchman is building a power base through radicalism. Is this the rational act of a man who truly preaches that we "serve God with a sound mind?" E-watchman's fruitage will be the failure of all of his interpretations. All of his studies, all of his learning, will do him no good when the Bible does not live up to his expectations. In many ways, e-watchman is to be pitied for his stance, because it does not allow for a true relationship with God, and therefore his own spiritual ruination is assured.

Can you provide actual evidence that Raymond Franz has anywhere said anything about the Watchtower organization that is not true? Please provide a verifiable reference. *****

Again, I did not say Ray Franz was a liar. While his doctrinal teaching is false, as mentioned above, more than likely most of what he says is true. But, on the other hand, we are just hearing one side of the story?his side.

The letter of Jude is very similar to the 2 nd chapter of II Peter and it relates that the false teachers are "the ones that make separations, animalistic men, not having spirituality." Now, ask yourself: Have the writings of Ray Franz caused "separations"? Without a doubt, yes they have. Conversely, have his writings benefited anyone spiritually? No, no one could make the case in the affirmative that their faith has been strengthened by his teaching.

Just like unreasoning animals, animalistic men also instinctively know the weaknesses and fears of others. They know that if they can subtly create enough doubt within a person's mind, then their faith will give way and they will have their intended prey. The victim may not even know he has been devoured.

Again, who is trying to rule by fear? How about the man with the nuclear bomb on his website? Who lives in fear and tries to project that fear onto others? How about the man who refuses to reveal his identity to the Watchtower, thereby allowing him to remain in the organization where his words will be more effective in building a cult around himself? Who is afraid of being disfellowshipped? The answer is e-watchman!

How is it that you view your website as somehow more justifiable, more righteous than Franz' writings, when both of you have caused Witnesses to be stumbled from the organization by what you have said? *****

At least the questioner here admits that Franz's writings have stumbled people. But, the question is: Why would you defend anyone who knowingly stumbles others out of the truth?

BECAUSE IT ISN'T THE TRUTH, idiot! Even you admit that the doctrines are false in many respects, although you seem to want to keep the control mechanisms in place - like guilt over holidays, sex, and pleasure.

Actually, there is a huge difference between Ray Franz and e-watchman, and many readers are well aware of those differences. For one thing, Ray Franz only presents his readers with negativity. He gives them no reason whatsoever to continue to believe that Jehovah's Witnesses are the true Christian faith. On the other hand, even though I am deeply disappointed in the Watchtower at times, e-watchman does not give away the faults of his brothers that are not otherwise public knowledge. For example, I have frequently focused attention on the Watchtower's child abuse issues and their NGO membership. But, these things are common knowledge. The child abuse thing in particular was published in many lands on national television and major newspapers.

While the depth of our error may come as a shock to some of the friends, rather than leaving the reader with the sinking feeling that the organization is hopelessly corrupt, e-watchman has delved into the prophecies with the intent of shedding light on our situation from Jehovah's perspective in order to impart hope. My purpose has always been to reach out to those who have been stumbled, as well as those who are yet to be stumbled, in order to impart some measure of hope and faith to the discouraged soul. Judging by the hundreds of emails and Guest Book entries, my writings have had an overwhelmingly positive effect upon the spirituality of Jehovah's Witnesses, particularly those who are disheartened. I have received many letters of thanks for providing a basis to continue to trust Jehovah's purpose in connection with Jehovah's Witnesses. I unhesitatingly recommend my faith as one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

I wonder, would e-watchman do the same if he stepped forward, revealed himself, and suffered the indignities of a Judicial Committee? Of being shunned, hated, spoken against? From his hiding place, it must be easy to condemn all those who have chosen to leave the organization. If he were disfellowshipped, as he assuredly would be if he stepped forward, would he still direct strangers to the organization as the proper place for people to be? I think not. But the proof is in the pudding, or the fruitage, as it were.

Can Ray Franz say that? What does Ray Franz stand for anyway? Okay, so he left the Watchtower, now what? What is the truth? He admits that he is not really sure. He advises a wait-and-see approach, much like the atheist or agnostic who shrugs off any commitment to search for the truth by saying 'we'll find out when we die.' Franz has no burning passion for truth. He demonstrates no commitment to the glorification of Jehovah God. Franz and men like him are exactly described by Jude as "stars with no set course, for which the blackness of darkness stands reserved forever."

Hm, a wait and see approach to prophecy? It's called humility, e-watchman! Admitting that you don't have all the answers, that you haven't been anointed by God when you haven't been, is called honesty. If e-watchman were truly anointed by God, he wouldn't fear the Judicial Committee as much as he does. What Ray is continually sure of is his love for God and God's love for him! That is the only truth that stands the test of time! There is no "new light" that can change that, in fact, as Paul said, "Nor angels, nor heights nor depths, nor things now here nor things to come can separate us from God's love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Ultimately, who we choose now for our guide will determine whether we reach our goal of salvation or not. The Bible advises that we keep focused on God's prophetic word until the daystar arises in our hearts. During the darkest hours of the end of the world we may expect the sealed sons of the kingdom to shine as brightly as the stars of heaven and lead God's people to life. Contrasted with that, Jude describes the animalistic misleaders of God's people as lost stars hurtling into eternal blackness. You would do well to seriously reflect upon the course Ray Franz has provided by his pattern and decide if you really want to follow his wandering star into oblivion.

Oh, but fortunately, e-watchman is here to save us! Oh, thank you, sir. Shall I call you master, now? Shall I leave you my grandmother's jewelry? Shall I devote my youth to your pronouncements? Shall you set up a commune and we can all live there according to your regulations against all things that God has put here for our use and enjoyment?

If e-watchman is serious, then we shall see the marks of a true prophet in him. For one thing, he will reveal his true identity. No prophet ever hid himself in fear, but showed himself in the public squares when pronouncing his message. Sometimes THEN they ran for it, but their trust was in God, not in secrecy. For another thing, his prophecies will come true. They haven't.

This is a flake, a nutjob, trying to recruit followers to his extremist Witness cause. Don't follow e-watchman. Trust in Jesus Christ and in the God who sent him.

CZAR

Jeremy Tennent of Pittsburgh Pennsylvania

[email protected]

mizpah

Obviously, e-watchman has never met or known Ray Franz. Ray needs no defense. He is a fine Christian man that struggled with his conscience and decided for truth and righteousness. The trouble with most Jehovah's Witnesses is they equate the organization with God. Ray had a conflict with this premise even as most of us who have left the organization. Ray had the courage to write about his experiences and quest for Christian freedom. For this, he has never been forgiven by the leadership of the Watchtower Society or by Jehovah's Witnesses in general.

Actually, many of us think Ray was much too kind and considerate in his treatment of the organization. But his books will remain as invaluable information for all who question or doubt the Watchtower's claim as being the "channel" that God is using today.

stillajwexelder

I have never met Ray Franz -- but everything I have ever read about him convince me he is a man of integrity -- not like e-watchman

outoftheorg

If a person were to remove Ray Franz name, from his rantings and replace it with E Watchman's name or the WBTS name, everything he says would fit in rather nice'ly.

Outoftheorg

WTinfiltrated

...he is aman of integrity -- not like e-watchman

I Know e-watchman, and I can say the same thing; and then?

SpunkyChick

I have never met Ray Franz either, but give him mucho kudos for writing the book he did. Poor e-watchman needs to pull the bible from his ass and maybe take a class in reading comprehension before he decides to write such utter trite.

mizpah

My wife and I have met Ray and his wife, Cynthia. A few adjectives that come to mind is humble, caring, senstive, kind, loving, hospitable and, above all, very truthful. Ray would be the first to admit mistakes and errors.

But it is precisely because he has these attributes that the Watchtower Society saw him as a threat and danger. Not only did the Watchtower maneuver to have him removed from the Governing Body and Bethel, but it made a concerted effort to destroy his good name and reputation among Jehovah's Witnesses.

Ray makes it very clear in his book "In Search of Christian Freedom" that he disapproves of leaders and man made organizations who claim to have the truth. He puts the responsibility for the search upon each individual. It's a lesson not yet learned by the majority of Jehovah's Witnesses.

yesidid

Good post Czar, thank you.

Just one question. What did e-watchmen predict re the Iraq war?

yesidid

e-watchman responds!

czarofmischief

izobcenec

czarofmischief

mizpah

stillajwexelder

outoftheorg

WTinfiltrated

SpunkyChick

mizpah

yesidid

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