Don't you think that some people are just better off within the org?

by paradiseseeker 58 Replies latest jw friends

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  never a jw

  Paradiseeker,

  Your English is great.

  Despite the blood transfusion ban and everything else negative about the Borg, there are cases in which the pros of being in a cult are greater than the cons. As a general rule, all those older people who didn't enjoy a good secular education, have poor finances, little self worth and a superstitious nature belong to cults like the Borg. In a cult, its members have goals, self worth, purpose, hope and plenty of like minded people to confirm their belief system is the right one.
  
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  OnTheWayOut

  Are some better off without "the truth about the truth" ? Maybe so.
  
  I like no-zombie's example of whether or not we should remove the morphine drip from a dying person so they can reconnect with loved ones or if we should let them go peacefully.
  
  But that agonizing decision is for the terminal patients or the terminal JW's. With a terminal patient, experts have a pretty good knowledge of when someone has passed the point of no return. But really, isn't a JW not necessarily at the point of no return until very late in their life? Who decides?
  
  I say everyone deserves to know the truth about "the truth" no matter what stage in life they are at, and those that cannot cope will self-reveal such. It is just as every terminally ill person would deserve to choose between some radical, possibly harmful treatment that would ultimately extend their life and the morphine drip.

  Further, the analogy is not perfect but I will expand on such. Hardcore JW lifers are not in an isolated world whether they want to believe that or not. Their staying ignorant or learning reality doesn't just effect them, it effects the people around them. So call me selfish, but most JW's have loved ones who woke up and want the best for them. And the imperfect analogy is that many terminal patients should be allowed to decide outcomes for themselves, but we are not always allowing such with our JW loved ones. But that's mostly because we know they are not truly "terminal." They don't truly know the happiness of reality.
  
  I could go on, but I think most of us can speculate further from this point.
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  Xanthippe

  I have wondered this myself. My brother seemed very happy at bethel but the times that I stayed there all the bloody bells ringing to tell you what to do and when to do it would have driven me mad.

  When I had to meet up with my siblings to dispose of our parents' house and sort financial matters it occurred to me that they are just not very bright, sad to say. Yet we come from the same gene pool.

  There is a lot of truth in the theory that the basis for intelligence may be genetic but it's what you do with it after you're born that counts. They were also very paranoid about everyone we had to deal with from the parish council to house-clearing companies. They seemed to expect to be cheated and treated badly. I'm not sure they could cope with knowing the TTATT and living in the real world.
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  flipper

  I really don't think in reality that ANY JW is " better off " in a mind control , high control cult. It's just that JW's are trained to THINK that they're better off in a mind control cult.

  It's like a frog in a slow, slow boiling pot of water. It feels so warm and comfy - why would the frog want to get out ? And then in time the frog boils to death and dies. That's whats happening to every single JW who is trapped inside. Little do 100 % of JW's know that 100 % of ALL of them will someday be laying on their deathbed after " boiling in the slow boiling pot " of lies , deceptions, and false promises of the WT Society throughout their lives.

  And then some of them, will lay there at the end of their life wondering " what happened ? I was supposed to live forever, not die " . These folks will get sick to their stomach when reality punches them in the gut and by then learning TTATT will do them no good- they're dead. Other JW's will lay there hanging onto their illusions until the bitter end " comforting " themselves thinking " I'm only sleeping for a little while I'll be back in a resurrection " - yet those folks are no better off than the JW who sees TTATT at the end of their life - because ? - drum roll - they STILL DIE.

  Either way, whether a JW sees TTATT, or they hang onto their illusions until death, both of these JW's are screwed because they hung onto these illusions their whole life- and death provides no more time to ever see what reality and real life was ! It's like hanging onto aan old vehicle till the engine goes, the tires fall of, the cars body falls off driving on the road until you're left with nothing- stripped bare - holding the steering wheel in your hands - but going nowhere.

  Anyway- kind of how I see it. I know. My folks lived in this JW illusion for about 65 years. Now they're dead. No more chance to have ever seen real life living with a free mind - they were totally enslaved their whole life. Was that better for them ? I don't think so in my humble opinion. It caused them to make really unsuccessful and damaging decisions in their life. But hey- we the living can see examples like that- and that doesn't have to be our fate. O.K. End of my take. Peace out ! Happy new year everybody. Mr. Flipper
• 

  scratchme1010

  Do you think that some people simply can't cope with being outside the JWs?
  

  Bienvenido al foro.

  Not only I agree with you 100%, but professionals in the matter who have done research and dedicate their careers to study groups like the WT also agree.

  I'm personally friends with people who help people who have lost loved ones to cults. Before intervening with the person, they make an entire assessment of their family, looking for the environment in which the person will come back to if he/she leaves the cult. Sometimes their recommendation has been that they are better off in the cult for several reasons:

  1. The family environment is that horrible
  2. They don't have a better place to come to
  3. They are not really in a cult; the family just want to control the person
  4. The person's mental health issues are too severe and there's no support for the person outside
  5. The cult is actually taking care of important aspects of the person't life, that otherwise he/she could not get
  6. The person doesn't have the life skills necessary to deal with life

  There are many reasons why some people are better off being part of an organization that gives them structure that otherwise they wouldn't get (or they perceive that they wouldn't get).

  I am very happy that I'm not one of those people.
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  no-zombie

  OnTheWayOut ... you are right in saying that everyone has the right to know the TATT but I was just trying to say from my (and many of us here) experience, that most witnesses will not accept what we've got to say, nor appreciate our good intents. And as a consequence, they have committed themselves to a particular path, on which they will travel until their death or that of the Society.

  But don't you guys get blown away by the story behind the Matrix and the position we find our selves in ... and I'm sure there must have been a time or two when we've all wished for a second to be re-plugged in become blissfully ignorant once more.

  However we are not ignorant and we cant unlearn what we know. And as a result we have become more like the Greek princess Cassandra, who was given the power to truthfully prophecy the future ... but cursed by the fact no-one would listen. As a result, she was seen as a liar, a madwoman and ultimately imprisoned by her family and countrymen. Tragically she went insane because despite her best efforts to warn of an approaching disaster, people never paid heed and sadly suffered as a result of doing so.

  And perhaps the lesson here is that we should be a little pragmatic and realize the risks in trying to save people who by and large, do not want to be. All the while, taking care of our own mental heath so that we can fight (or rather help) another day.
  

  no zombie
  
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  Anders Andersen

  Don't you think some people are just better off within the org?

  No.

  • They may suffer from anxiety, loss of identity, loss of structure or whatever when exiting the cult, but all that can be addressed by education, therapy, etc.

  • The JW mind disease is contagious. Any JW who exits the cult is one less recruiter that can ruin someone else's life by drawing them into the cult.
  • If a JW leaves others may be triggered into waking up as well.

  • Any JW who exits the cult is one less money source to keep the cult alive.

  • Any JW who exits the cult is one less seat filler. Less filled seats equals less 'encouragement' and a lower morale for those who stay in.

  So even if there is no apparent improvement for some individual, their exit may likely prove beneficial for society in general, for people both in and outside the cult.

  Therefore I'll likely try to wake up anyone I can, regardless of their individual benefits.
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  steve2

  Some people - especially those raised in high-control groups - have learned strongly institutionalised behaviours from infancy in which they literally need to be told what to think and do and in some instances, would be highly susceptible to danger if “set free”.

  This has less to do with “being better off” in an institution and more to do with prior learning rendering them at risk outside the institution. Think of the huge mental hospitals that were de-institutionalised in the 1970s and 1980s. A high proportion of patients had never lived on their own and had very few skills for meeting the routine demands and stressors of everyday life.

  To a certain extent, this captures some of the difficulties experienced by JWs when they leave or their JW network desserts them. It helps us understand also why a sizeable proportion of those who are kicked out, far too frequently cannot cope on the “outside” and/or kill them selves or go back.

  The state of being institutionalised to one degree or another explains a lot of the difficulties people face when they’ve been in high-control groups. They may despair of their life in the institution - but “better the devil they know...”.
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  OnTheWayOut

  No-zombie, I met a few who went back for the sake of loved ones, accepting a misery that accompanies that. But I have never met someone who wished they could go back to ignorance. I guess there are some, but most all of us not only learn TTATT, but we learn that we were missing important things in life to live the lie.
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  Incognito

  I'm sure there must have been a time or two when we've all wished for a second to be re-plugged in become blissfully ignorant once more - no-zombie
  

  It seems an ignorance position is somewhat desirable as it is usually easier. A JW only needs to do as they are told with no further thinking or decision making needed. They are not responsible for their actions but are only following directions given.

  While many JWs are conditioned to think in an institutional manner, I believe some may be prone to think as a gambler does.

  JWs are conditioned to believe they won't die and their loved relatives who have died, will be resurrected. Even if a JW recognizes the religion's problems and errors, the thought of abandoning it means they must accept they will die and loose hope to see their departed relatives again. No one wants to die or experience loosing someone they love so it's usually harder to accept, the JWs/WT may also be wrong about resurrection and death.

  To a gambler that has bet much money but hasn't won, typically holds the belief that the next hand, coin or roll of the dice will be the one that pays off. Similarly, if the JW doesn't give up hope but remains a JW for just a short time longer, then it will finally pay-off.