Unpopular opinion

by Judgerussellford 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Judgerussellford

  So I've asked this question to witnesses in the past (super no no question to ask by the way but hilarious responses) to bosses and coworkers, and random people of different faiths and I'm curious to know how mixed of a response this community will give. Bible believers or not your oppinion is very welcome. Technically according to scripture we are gods sons. But he has angelic sons in heaven, viz: angels. 2 in particular, Yeshua (Jesus I prefer any original Hebrew variation personaly) and for lack of not knowing his real name, we will just go with a popular mislabeled name, Lucifer. In essence these two are brothers, The epitome of two great opposites, good and evil. We will come back to this in a moment. Let's jump to some NT theology for a minute.

  It is written that God desires none to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. That being said, does the Devil himself have to die after Armageddon? I ask this because as it seems a loving father wouldn't want to pit his own sons against each other, (told you wed be back to two brothers) let alone have one destroyed for all eternity. To answer this question theologically, it seems only proper to examine the one sin that could never be forgiven in this life nor in the one to come. Thats blasphemy of the spirit.. George Storrs put it in decent terms in 1876 if i remember the date right,, that the pharasees who said that messiah cast out demons by the power of beelzebub, actually attributed the power of a good working spirit from God, to evil. In that example is a decent explanation of blasphemy of the spirit.

  Folks of most faiths I've talked to don't really have an answer for me, but my sister gave me an interesting reason as to why she's believes yes. The unfairness of one sone dying, voluntarily or not, that did not deserve the death, and the one thats really messed up our race (with help from ourselves of course) wouldn't be in a loving gods nature. After all, Nineveh repented and the prophecy of her destruction was made null. And although Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, messiah himself said that they would be restored before Isreal was and were better off than Isreal. All it takes is repentance. So if he really does have to die, has he ever blasphemed the spirit? If so, how? If not doesn't he recieve a second chance much like the two doomed cities of lots time? Why shouldn't he die at least once since we all have to and his own brother did right? I hope the ones who read this can make sense of my ramblings. Just simply, will the epitome of evil get a second chance? All opinions welcome, believers or not
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  truth_b_known

  God takes his place in the divine assembly;*b
  In the middle of the gods* he judges:c
  2 “How long will you continue to judge with injusticed
  And show partiality to the wicked?e (Selah)
  3 Defend* the lowly and the fatherless.f
  Render justice to the helpless and destitute.g
  4 Rescue the lowly and the poor;
  Save them out of the hand of the wicked.”
  5 They do not know, nor do they understand;h
  They are walking about in darkness;
  All the foundations of the earth are being shaken.i
  6 “I have said, ‘You are gods,*j
  All of you are sons of the Most High. - Psalm 82:1-6 NWT
  31 Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy;+ for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’?*+ 35 If he called ‘gods’+ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? - John 10:31-36 NWT

  The above is your scriptural proof that all beings are not just sons of God, but gods themselves.

  What is forgiveness - a conscious, deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually deserve your forgiveness.

  Forgiveness is not for the wrongdoer. It if for the one who was wronged. Resentment is a prison that traps us from happiness. You must be free to be happy. If you are resentful you are not free.

  Even a god cannot do be happy while being resentful. This holds true in both physical and spiritual realms. Being angry is being in hell.
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  GodBeliever

  When the Lord has compassion on Jacob and again chooses Israel, and settles them on their own land, then strangers will join them and attach themselves to the house of Jacob. The peoples will take them along and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will make them their own possession in the land of the Lord as male and female servants; and they will take their captors captive and will rule over their oppressors. And it will be on the day when the Lord gives you rest from your hardship, your turmoil, and from the harsh service in which you have been enslaved, that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say, “How the oppressor has ceased, And how the onslaught has ceased! “The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked, The scepter of rulers, Which used to strike the peoples in fury with unceasing strokes, Which subdued the nations in anger with unrestrained persecution. “The whole earth is at rest and is quiet; They break forth into shouts of joy. “Even the juniper trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you have been laid low, no tree cutter comes up against us.’ “Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come; It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. “They will all respond and say to you, ‘Even you have become weak as we, You have become like us. ‘Your pride and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering.’ “How you have fallen from heaven, You star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who defeated the nations! “But you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. ‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ “Nevertheless you will be brought down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit. “Those who see you will stare at you, They will closely examine you, saying, ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, Who made the world like a wilderness And overthrew its cities, Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?’ “All the kings of the nations lie in glory, Each in his own tomb. “But you have been hurled out of your tomb Like a rejected branch, Clothed with those killed who have been pierced with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit Like a trampled corpse. “You will not be united with them in burial, Because you have ruined your country, You have killed your people. May the descendants of evildoers never be mentioned.Isaiah 14:1‭-‬20 NASB2020
  
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  GodBeliever

  “Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre, ‘The Lord God says this: “Because your heart is haughty And you have said, ‘I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods In the heart of the seas’; Yet you are a mortal and not God, Although you make your heart like the heart of God— Behold, you are wiser than Daniel; There is no secret that is a match for you! “By your wisdom and understanding You have acquired riches for yourself And have acquired gold and silver for your treasuries. “By your great wisdom, by your trade You have increased your riches, And your heart is haughty because of your riches— Therefore this is what the Lord God says: ‘Because you have made your heart Like the heart of God, Therefore, behold, I am going to bring strangers against you, The most ruthless of the nations. And they will draw their swords Against the beauty of your wisdom And profane your splendor. ‘They will bring you down to the pit, And you will die the death of those who are killed In the heart of the seas. ‘Will you still say, “I am a god,” In the presence of one who kills you, Though you are a mortal and not God, In the hands of those who wound you? ‘You will die the death of the uncircumcised By the hand of strangers, For I have spoken!’ declares the Lord God!” ’ ” Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Son of man, take up a song of mourning over the king of Tyre and say to him, ‘This is what the Lord God says: “You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. “You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. “You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. “You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. “By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, you covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire. “Your heart was haughty because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I threw you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you. “By the multitude of your wrongdoings, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. “All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever.” ’ ”

  Ezekiel 28:2‭-‬19 NASB2020
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  punkofnice

  For me, I think that it's all fiction. when we die, that's it. We cease to be. No heaven and no hell. No God and no Devil.

  All we have is ourselves and we waste too much time on fiction. Be it the News media, it's all fiction. Be it religion, it's all fiction.

  We're being conned on a grand scale. Life isn't fair.

  There is no purpose. We like to think there is but there really can't be if you look at it all.
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  GodBeliever

  “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

  Matthew 25:41 NASB2020
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  jhine

  That's a lot to digest , but my first thought is Jesus and Lucifer are only brothers if you agree with the Watchtower teaching that Jesus is a created angel . As far as l am aware it is only the WT that teaches this and they can only produce one verse to back it up .

  Jan
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  TonusOH

  That being said, does the Devil himself have to die after Armageddon?

  That depends on how you perceive the nature of god. Is god unable to act against his nature, so that he must take certain actions in order to remain true to himself? Or is he free to go off-script if he so wishes? The Biblical god has no equal in power and he cannot be brought to account, so the only person who could stay his hand is himself.

  We know that god was not a stickler to the letter of the law, allowing humans to break the rules sometimes and not face punishment. So it seems as if he understands that rigid adherence to rules is not always the right way to act. If this is the case, then the Devil would not have to die at Armageddon. God can forgive him and let him live, without violating his own nature. I suppose he would need a very good reason for doing that, but it can happen.

  As a non-believer, I can look at the issue from that angle. When I was a JW, I would have said that there was no way that Jehovah would allow the Devil to live, because Satan had directly challenged God's rule and caused so much suffering. And to be honest, just because God is willing to bend the rules for the sake of justice doesn't mean he would find any reason to spare the Devil. And if the Devil was unrepentant, it would make no sense to forgive him, instead of putting him out of everyone's misery.

  That being said, we are left to wonder why God didn't just do that from the very start and save us the thousands of years of suffering and grief.
  
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  MeanMrMustard

  I saw your "interview" thread, so I know you are still Bible-believing. So, approaching your question from that context, I would ask:

  Define "death". Are you sure the JW view of death (annihilation) is correct?
  
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  Vanderhoven7

  Allow me to interject here. It seems to me that scripture teaches that man is tripartite: body, soul and spirit; the soul being our personality, i.e., mind will and emotions, the spirit being that which gives life to the body and personality and allows for communication between God and man.

  first death = cessation of bodily function and soul consciousness (sleep being an appropriate metaphor)

  Second death = destruction of body, soul and spirit.