It seems to me that Well's did not believe that Jesus taught an apocalyptic message, but I believe that Jesus did teach an apocalyptic message.
What did Jesus Teach the "Kingdom of Heaven/God" is?
by truth_b_known 17 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Disillusioned JW
I notice that someone gave my my recent prior post in this topic a negative vote. Why is that?
Does the person who did so think that Jesus did not teach an apocalyptic message? If so, what reason does the person have for thinking such?
Does the person who cast the negative vote think that H.G. Wells believed that Jesus taught an apocalyptic message? If so I hope the person provides a source for that, since I would like to believe that Wells acknowledged that Jesus taught an apocalyptic message.
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Disillusioned JW
H. G. Wells says more about what he considered to be part of the teaching of Jesus. Page 446 of H. G. Wells' book says the following.
"And not only did Jesus strike at patriotism and the bonds of family loyalty in the name of God’s universal fatherhood and brotherhood of all mankind, but it is clear that his teaching condemned all the gradations of the economic system, all private wealth, and personal advantages. All men belonged to the kingdom; all their possessions belonged to the kingdom; the righteous life for all men, the only righteous life, was the service of God’s will with all that we had, with all that we were. Again and again he denounced private riches and the reservation of any private life."
On page 447 Wells quotes from Mark chapter 10 which says the following.
“And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the Kingdom of God! And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answered again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the Kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God.”
That message of no private wealth in the kingdom is one which would have been a very hard message for most people to accept, except mostly for the poorest of the poor.
On pages 447-448 of the edition of 1971 Wells says the following.
"It was not merely a moral and a social revolution that Jesus proclaimed; it is clear from a score of indications that his teaching had a political bent of the plainest sort. It is true that he said his kingdom was not of this world, that it was in the hearts of men and not upon a throne; but it is equally clear that wherever and in what measure his kingdom was set up in the hearts of men, the outer world would be in that measure revolutionized and made new."
Page 453 of the edition of Wells' book from 1971 says the following. "The early Nazarenes, as the followers of Jesus were called, present from the first a spectacle of a great confusion ..., his teaching, on the one hand, and the glosses and interpretations of the disciples on the other. They continued for a time his disciples of the complete subjugation of self; they had their goods in common, they had no bond but love. Nevertheless, they built their faith upon the stories that were told of his resurrection and magical ascension, and the promised return. Few of them understood that the renunciation of self is its own reward, that it is itself the Kingdom of Heaven; they regarded it as a sacrifice that entitled them to the compensation of power and dominion when presently the second coming occurred. They now all identified Jesus with the promised Christ, the Messiah so long expected by the Jewish people."
It is those words from pages 447-448 and from page 453 (and from the first paragraph of page 453, which I did not include in the quotes) of the 1971 edition of Wells' book which give me the impression that Wells did not believe that Jesus taught an apocalyptic message (though for awhile I had thought that Wells did believe that Jesus taught such an apocalyptic message).
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Vanderhoven7
Well contrary to Watchtower understanding , Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 8:10-11 When Jesus heard it, he marveled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Hebrews 11: 9-10, 13-16 9 By faith he (Abraham) sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.... 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
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Disillusioned JW
Though many people interpret the NT expression of "Kingdom of heaven" (including the WT [in regards to Jesus and the 144,000] and Vanderhoven7) as meaning the "kingdom in heaven" years ago I discovered that a number of scholars say it doesn't mean that (and it does not mean that Matthew 8:10-11 says Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be in heaven instead of on Earth). Those scholars say it means the kingdom which receives its authority from God and thus that the location of the authority is from heaven, with the kingdom on Earth. Some of them also say it was a way to avoid using the name/tile "God" when communicating to Jewish non-Christians (ones who try to avoid over use of the 'name' of God) and that such is why it is used in the gospel called "According to Matthew" (which is claimed to be primarily written to specifically convince Jews) but not in the gospel called "According to Mark" and not in the gospel called "According to Luke" (or only infrequently used in those two books). That was a key insight to me when I doing independent biblical study (that is independent of WT literature) while I was still a Christian. It contributed to me coming to believe that the Church of God (Abrahamic Faith) and the Church of God (Sevenh Day) are the two religions of Christianity which are the closest to biblical Christianity.
Keep in mind that Daniel 2:44 says the kingdom will be on Earth, ruling from Earth (though with it being brought into existence form a source located in heaven, namely from YHWH God).
Note that in the Lord's prayer (also called the our father prayer) the book called "According to Matthew" attributed Jesus as telling his apostles/disciples to pray that the father's will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. This is consistent with the idea of expecting the kingdom to eventually extend to Earth, with the Messiah ruling on Earth.
For example, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_heaven_(Gospel_of_Matthew) . It says the following.
'Kingdom of heaven (Greek: βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν) is a phrase used in the Gospel of Matthew. It is generally seen as equivalent to the phrase "kingdom of God" (Greek: βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ) in the Gospel of Mark and the Gospel of Luke. ... Classical scholar Howard W. Clarke notes that Matthew 3:2 is the first of twenty-nine references to the "kingdom of heaven" in the Gospel of Matthew.[2] The gospels of Luke and Mark tend to prefer the term "kingdom of God". Matthew's use of the word "heaven" is often seen as a reflection of the sensibilities of the Jewish audience this gospel was directed to, and thus tried to avoid the word "God." Most scholars feel the two phrases are theologically identical.'
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Kingdom_of_God says the following.
'In the synoptic Gospels (which were written in Greek), Mark and Luke use the Greek term "Basileia tou Theou," commonly translated in English as "Kingdom of God," while Matthew prefers the Greek term "Basileia tōn Ouranōn" (Βασιλεία τῶν Ουρανῶν) which has been translated as "Kingdom of Heaven." Biblical scholars speculate that the Matthean text adopted the Greek word for "heaven" instead of the Greek word for "God" because—unlike Mark and Luke—it was written by a Jew for a Jewish audience so, in keeping with their custom, avoided using God's name as an act of piety. In Matthew, "heaven" stands for "God." The basis for these terms being equivalent is found in the apocalyptic literature of Daniel 2:44 where "the 'God of heaven' will set up a 'kingdom' which will never be destroyed."
... Jesus assumes his audience understands the Kingdom foundation that was laid in the Hebrew Scriptures. When he speaks of the Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven (both meaning the same thing) he speaks of the time of the fulfillment of the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants. A time of a restored earth where the faithful will worship and serve their God forever under the rulership of a righteous leader of the Davidic line. This was the Messianic hope of the prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures and was carried over and echoed in the words of John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, Paul and others in the Greek Scriptures.
Jesus would attach the theme of the gospel message itself with this Kingdom idea. Luke 4:43 tells the reader that Jesus' very purpose for being sent was to "preach the gospel about the Kingdom." He then would send out his disciples to speak this message even before they understood anything about his death and resurrection. Compare Luke 9:1-6, Matthew 9:35, Matthew 10:7, Matthew 16:21-23, etc. The initial seed that must be sown in the hearts of men was also identified as the word of the Kingdom by Jesus in Matthew 13:19. Shorthand for the word of the kingdom was given in Mark and Luke's version of the parable of the sower as "the word" (Mark 4:14) and "the word of God" (Luke 8:11).
Jesus often spoke of the Kingdom of God as the destination for the righteous in the end of days.[18] Jesus' words in the Sermon on the Mount shows that those who follow the "beatitudes" are rewarded with the Kingdom of God/inheriting the earth/comfort etc. Matthew 19 gives an account of Jesus equating popular terms such as "eternal life" and "saved" as the same thing as entering the Kingdom of God when it is established upon the earth. Jesus even taught his disciples to pray: "Let Your kingdom come, let Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." '
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nowwhat?
It seems to me that the message of the gospel is our personal salvation through faith in the resurrection of Jesus who died for our sins. And if the kingdom of god comes in our lifetime that's an added bonus. That's why Jesus basically said don't try and figure out when it's coming. When I return, trust me you will know it!!
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Sea Breeze
The Parable of the Hidden Treasure – Matthew 13:44
The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid; and from joy over it he goes and sells all he has, and buys that field.
A study of the Mt. 13 kingdom parables is a fascination study. The characters remain the same throughout the various parables. Jesus is the "man". The world is the field. The treasure is Israel which is in the world.
In order for Jesus to finally receive his throne in Israel, the one promised to him, he had to buy the whole world with everything he had... his life to get it. Once that was done, the kingdom existed in a mystery form in the hearts of believers.... a place not at first discernible, hidden in the "earth".
Later, when Jesus returns, the kingdom will be visible, tangible, in Israel with Jesus sitting on the throne of David.During the church age, or since the days of the apostles, Christians teach a gospel of reconciliation. The gospel of the kingdom will be preached by Israel (144K male virgins) during the great tribulation after the church has be evacuated. It is an Israeli message, whereas the gospel of reconciliation is a directed to "whosoever".
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Disillusioned JW
Regarding Hebrews 11: 9-10, 13-16 9 and the use of the word "heavenly" people often speak of certain things on Earth (or what they expect will eventually be on Earth) as heavenly. Saying that something is heavenly does not necessarily mean or imply that one is saying it is in heaven. For a thoroughly Jewish Jewish Messianic perspective see Thousands of New Testament Scholars Are Wrong | DISCOVER | First Fruits of Zion (ffoz.org) . It says the following.
'A Western mindset relegates what is spiritual to an invisible dimension. This is not the case in a Jewish perspective. The prophets, with all their focus on the tangible land of Israel and the earthly stones that comprise Jerusalem’s ramparts, never denied the spiritual, heavenly quality of that place of promise. The difference between a city founded by men and one founded by God is not the sphere of its existence. A city built by God is one that will not be destroyed and is filled with the glory of God.
In his promise of the new covenant, Jeremiah declares,
Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when the city shall be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate… It shall not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever. (Jeremiah 31:38-40)
That is the heavenly country and the city founded by God that Abraham anticipated. The goal of redemption is not to put an end to what is physical, but to unite the heavenly kingdom with this material earth, as our Master said, “On earth as it is in heaven.”
Abraham’s children were promised a heavenly country, not a country in heaven. That place is none other than the land of Israel. When Yeshua returns and his reward is with him, Mount Zion—yes, that Mount Zion—will be his throne. This fulfillment will simultaneously be spiritual, impacting all humanity, and physical, for Abraham and his descendants forever.'
My observation is that Messianic Jews, by being both Jews and followers of Yeshua/Jesus, often understand the Bible (OT with NT) better than gentile Christians.