I conclude evolution is guided

by KateWild 532 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • OneGenTwoGroups
    OneGenTwoGroups

    It is much better to apply Occams Razor when there is nodefinitive answer. Kate xx

    Admitting to ourselves that we don't know (for now) is an option you should consider.

    Perhaps it is a better option than inventing a being that guided organic matter on the earth millions of years ago and is currently playing a game of intergalactic peek-a-boo with us.

    It's like a cop at a murder scene concluding the perpetrator was a demon. "Well, it's highly probable to me that something magical occurred here, so I'm just going to go with that. Case closed."

    Don't forget the title of your thread is "I conclude", not "I have an idea".

    PS. I emailed Mr. Kenso, about this debate. Wouldn't it be cool if he weighed in?

  • Giles Gray
    Giles Gray

    k99-" I appreciate you trying to support mine and notsures' line of reasoning..."

    I wasn't actually supporting either of you. I wouldn't be so rude as to assume such a roll. Both of you are more than competent at looking after your own affairs.

    k99-"...however I am happy that I have got all I going to get from the discussion..."

    I'm sure 'honour has been served'.

    k99-"... and for me to continue to prod Kate has no positive angles."

    Agreed.

    k99-" The interesting bit of the discussion now is the debate between Cofty and Kate as it exposes me to the technicalities of a subject I have little real knowledge of."

    Yes. I'm very much looking forward to it. But it would be a shame if Kate's false accusation of you and notsurewheretogo were to taint her ability to convey her perspective without the cloud of suspicion as to her true motives.

  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic
    What did I do that was lazy? Can you be specific please? If drawing conclusions based on the facts is lazy or wrong please explain to me succinctly why this is please.
    -Kate


    Really Kate? You’re going to continue to play dumb? It has been explained at least a dozen times on this thread that you’re not drawing conclusions based on the facts but are instead choosing to assert unjustified presuppositions. Rather than doing any kind of research that could potentially verify your hypothesis you’re instead injecting your conclusion into an unknown. That’s not good reasoning. And it sure isn’t science. It’s just plain lazy.


    But what the heck, let’s give this one more try shall we?


    Your explanation is lazy because you haven’t explained how evolution was guided, what mechanisms were used, when it occurred, who did the guiding, and you haven’t provided a method via which we can tell the difference between guided evolution and non guided evolution. Instead, you’ve just made an entirely unsupported ad hoc and applied it to one of the frontiers of science. Anybody can give an answer for anything. What we care about are explanations that are actually likely to be true.


    The claim you’re making operates very much in the majesty of chemistry. As such, before you get to go around exclaiming “Eureka, I’ve found it!” or drawing any kind of conclusions you first have to do the actual work. Your hypothesis needs to be demonstrable with measurable accuracy and/or testable with repeatable veracity. That is to say, there needs to be some kind scientific methodology which we can use to get us from point A to point B.


    If you went to the scientific community and said, “Hey look, I have this high fidelity model of what we would expect unguided evolution to look like over a period of 4 billion years and and another one that shows guided evolution over 4 billion years - and look - it shows that the life we observe on the planet right now looks a lot more like guided evolution model.” Then the scientists would say, “Hey Kate, you might be onto something, how can we test this?” And then you would still have all your scientific research, conclusions, peer review, publishing, and academic debate in front of you.


    But that’s NOT what you’ve done. Instead, you’ve chosen to be lazy. Instead, you’ve chosen come onto a forum where most people have no formal education in chemistry and you’re attempting to browbeat them over the head with their scientific illiteracy in order to justify your unsupported ad hoc.

    Well, I for one am not impressed. Nor am I entertained. You started a thread claiming you were using science (chemistry to be exact) to justify your claim. But when we ask you for the science you resort to a God of the Gaps Fallacy. I cannot make this any clearer Kate, arm chair speculation is NOT scientific research. You know this. And you know what is necessary to justify a scientific conclusion. You just don’t want to have to actually do that work . . .


    . . .and you know what we call people who try and take short cuts and don’t want to do the necessary work?

  • WhatshallIcallmyself
    WhatshallIcallmyself

    " . .and you know what we call people who try and take short cuts and don’t want to do the necessary work?"

    Creationists?


  • konceptual99
    konceptual99

    Giles...

    k99-" I appreciate you trying to support mine and notsures' line of reasoning..."
    I wasn't actually supporting either of you. I wouldn't be so rude as to assume such a roll. Both of you are more than competent at looking after your own affairs.

    I guess I meant taking up the mantle of trying to get Kate to provide more reason and logic about why and how she came to her conclusion on guided evolution. I think Coded Logic has finally said what I couldn't be arsed to say and good on him, you, cofty et al for keeping it going.

  • Giles Gray
    Giles Gray

    k99-"I guess I meant taking up the mantle of trying to get Kate to provide more reason and logic about why and how she came to her conclusion on guided evolution."

    Well that's my pleasure. And thank you for your PM and also quoting my reference were I said 'roll' rather than 'role'. Predictive text is my only excuse.

    k99-" I think Coded Logic has finally said what I couldn't be arsed to say and good on him, you, cofty et al for keeping it going."

    Yes, but it looks like a case of 'old habbits die hard' as it's back to old ways again I'm afraid. I can't imagine the bruises Coded Logic will acquire, if he continues to hit his head so hard. We need the site owner to provide the facility of warning people that certain threads are 'hard hat' areas.

  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic

    Hahaha, well said you guys!


  • Island Man
    Island Man

    Well your conclusion doesn't seem to be based on any real evidence. I mean, It's not like there aren't any credible, logical, natural explanations for the LH amino acid issue. I get the sense that you just want to believe there is a god and so you're using bias to see the LH amino acid issue as evidence for a god when it really isn't.

    To me the whole issue of an all-powerful, super-intelligent God using guided evolution to create his designs makes about as much sense as using a Rube Golberg Machine to flip a light switch.

  • KateWild
    KateWild
    Molecules often need a bit of help to get together. The matchmakers are called catalysts. Imagine the result though if the end product ALSO has the right properties to catalyse more molecules. Each generation not only produces more end product but also more catalysts to facilitate even more reactions. - cofty

    This is not accurate, not all chemical compounds require catalysts, some exist as compounds in nature. Inorganic compounds are not entantiomeric therefore are never homochiral.

    The result is exponential growth. - cofty

    This is incomplete and misleading. Homochiral compounds that are synthesised in the lab using autocatlysis grow exponentially. There is no experiment and no results for this statement. In chemistry a result is a piece of data not a statement of fact.

    If there is a very small difference in the balance of the right and left types of molecule in the early stage of the process then that difference also grows exponentially. When both types are competing for resources one will win the contest by orders of magnitude. - cofty

    I have already told you on this thread that this statement is not true. But you conveniently ignored it. Your lack of chemistry leads you to make false chemical statements. This is intellectually lazy and dishonest. Just because you repeat it, doesn't make it true.

    Soai demonstrated exactly this outcome in his lab. It was one the great experiments of science.-cofty

    You don't understand anything about what Soai was researching and developing in 1995, or his motives for doing so. You're just twisting the facts to try and discredit me and what I have concluded based on my knowledge of chemistry.

    It is not the burden of anybody to show that any process could NOT be guided by a supernatural source. That is a fool's errand. - cofty

    Yes I agree it is, you have made a fool of yourself trying to do that in this thread.

    It is the task of science to show that it is entirely possible for unguided naturalistic processes to accomplish each task. The puzzle of why the stuff of living things is all made of left-handed molecules is now no more of a mystery than the path of the planets. - Cofty

    Who says what the task of science is? You are not twisting facts at all because you don't have bias, but just a position. All living this are not made of l-enantiomers, What about glucose and all d-sugars?

    Cofty, no one can prove that Gods do or don't exist. I draw my conclusions on the scientific facts and data I have it's just my opinion though, and I don't think anyone should follow what I say. I am not trying to make any claims of an existence of a diety. You can carry on seeking the very best arguments against your position if it makes you happy. But your argument against my position is not the very best argument. cantleave, Angus' argument is much better than yours.

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann

    The evolution can be guided using the very chance factor. But there's no way to detect that. But nothing prevents the chance factor being guided.

    This is called faith. It's a good thing if you don't try to search horns in horses' heads.

    There's is no materialistic hand detectable in evolution. NONE.

    And I believe in guided evolution. But metaphysically guided.

    You're just being a JW Kate. You still have the positivist approach in things that are not material. Just like to find the mathematical formula for love or happiness.

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